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July 23, 2014, 04:16:30 PM
TIGSource ForumsPlayerGamesOuya - New Game Console?
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Author Topic: Ouya - New Game Console?  (Read 90962 times)
Christian Knudsen
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« Reply #915 on: February 18, 2013, 02:25:22 PM »

For my part, I'm enthusiastic about the OUYA simply because it's a non-closed piece of hardware to play with.

I think most criticisms are aimed at the software and business side of things, not the hardware itself?
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« Reply #916 on: February 18, 2013, 02:41:02 PM »

I think most criticisms are aimed at the software and business side of things, not the hardware itself?

With a system that makes no attempt to close off the hardware, the hardware is what you are really paying for. Whatever distribution system they saddle to the base package is significant, but it also isn't the end-all-be-all for the system. The original PSP proved that a less constrained hardware platform can be very appealing even if software for the system never sells that well.

If you want to create your own custom store front for the OUYA, you can. If you want to make games that only work on the OUYA after it's been rooted, you can. It's a hardware platform without the constraints that usually limit what can be done with most other commercial systems. And while even a budget PC would normally run you $300 for parts, the OUYA comes in at a much more reasonable price point. It's essentially all of the benefits of a Raspberry PI, but with more processing power and features, and a controller.

Sure there are plenty of valid complaints about the software and business side of things. And there should be. Push-back from the development community is how those sorts of systems can be refined and improved upon. Steam is celebrated today, but even it gets that kind of resistance. And it certainly didn't start off in the state is has reached.

OUYA has been an incredibly divisive enterprise. Many are excited by the possibilites it presents, while others seem to actually fear it. At the end of the day, it is providing something that we didn't have before. I feel confident in saying that we will all be better off for having it in the market. It may rise or fall, but as a hobbyist developer that doesn't really effect me. What I can get from it is what I want. The rest is immaterial for the time being.
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« Reply #917 on: February 18, 2013, 02:54:21 PM »

For a dev like me who has done the research and just wants to find the "impulse buy" price point and sell you the damn game, OUYA doesn't give me the option I need to sell via.  Their rationale is that you can make a game demo, then use an in-game unlockable purchase to let the players buy the full game.

OK: Let me tell you something about Demos.  They Kill Sales.  This is not only my anecdotal evidence, but it's a phenomenon that's actually been experienced by many well received games with demos, and led to less sales than other well received games that don't have game demos.  This effect is magnified for cheaper / indie & mobile games (and even applies to Applications, not just games).

It's the same reason why the shareware model isn't such a great model, it's VERY hard to pull off a game demo.  You're working against yourself:  You have to let the players experience enough mechanics that they don't think your demo is shit, while at the same time contending with the fact that if you give the players enough content to be satisfied with they won't feel compelled to pay for your game -- You miss the impulse sale.  They'll think: "Man, that was great, I'm gonna buy this later," then play 50 other demos and totally forget about yours.  

What works to drive excitement, curiosity, and thus sales is footage of gameplay -- You want to experience that cool stuff you just saw, you have to buy the game.  Oh, but won't someone think of the players?!  What if they buy a crap game based on misleading videos?!  We already solved this in every damn app store: Satisfaction Guarantee Refunds.  You (impulse) buy the application / game, and try it out.  If you don't like it you get a full refund.  This is BETTER than the demo model because they don't need to wait to download the rest to keep on playing the game if they like it, and if the users hate it they can get a refund.  The end result is less work for the developer, streamlined sales, and more customers.

As a developer, I'd just disagree with you. But as a gamer, I just can't put it any other way than simply: fuck you.

You want me to buy your game out of ignorance; you want to omit the demo not because of any problems that would be involved in the creation of the demo, but because otherwise it would allow me to make an informed decision of whether or not I'll actually like the product I'm about to buy, instead of just forking over my cash and hope I didn't make a mistake. I pay you for providing me with entertainment, but you want me to pay even if I will not actually be entertained by it. You know what they call it when you trick people into buying something they do not want, and try to prevent them from making an informed decision? It's called a scam.

Now, there are many valid reasons for not making a demo. Perhaps you don't have the time to make one. Perhaps a demo wouldn't be representative of the full game. Perhaps the amount of material required to be representative would make buying the full game unnecessary. But if you are an indie developer, rather than just some greedy corporate asshat, 'to make sure the customer doesn't find out he doesn't like the game enough to buy it' is NOT a valid reason for not releasing a demo.

I understand your point from a business perspective, detached from morals. But trying to profit by pushing your players into making purchases they regret is despicable.

I, myself, love the Ouya's business model - it guarantees there is always a demo of some sort that I can try before purchasing a game, and it will drastically cut down on the amount of game purchases I regret.

Quote
Oh, but what about Minecraft? It was basically a demo while in development, right?  Uh, Notch got payment up front for access to the Alpha versions -- It wasn't a free demo.
Then please explain to me how I've played a lot of Minecraft a long time ago despite never having sent a single penny in Notch's way? Back during Alpha there were two versions - Survival mode, which was exclusive to people who pre-ordered, and was the alpha of the entire game; and Creative mode, which was only the building aspect of Minecraft, and was completely free (and you could even host your own private servers for free). People played the free Creative mode, and then paid for the complete experience.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 03:00:32 PM by VDZ » Logged
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« Reply #918 on: February 18, 2013, 02:56:47 PM »

if you want customizable hardware though, why not just develop for raspberry pi?
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Richard Kain
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« Reply #919 on: February 18, 2013, 03:04:38 PM »

if you want customizable hardware though, why not just develop for raspberry pi?

No default controller.

No support for major game engines. (I'm currently working in Unity)

I want to develop games, not tech demos. The Raspberry PI was designed with low-level programming education in mind. I would prefer to work in an existing game engine that divorces me from low-level code as much as possible. I'm trying to cobble together prototypes and tools, not optimize collision engines.

Also, the Raspberry PI is continuously back-ordered, on account of it not having serious financial backing. It's also not available in retail stores. If the OUYA manages to do decent business, it could be a regular fixture at the local WalMart.
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deathtotheweird
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« Reply #920 on: February 18, 2013, 03:08:33 PM »

Quote
For my part, I'm enthusiastic about the OUYA simply because it's a non-closed piece of hardware to play with. At it's diminutive price point, it makes it a convenient solution for all sorts of development experiments. I'm personally planning on using it as the core of a new type of arcade cabinet. (that is designed to be played with smart-phones) Having a piece of tech like this available at an affordable price is convenient for me.

What can you do with the Ouya that you can't already do with a computer? The only apparent advantage is price and size, but if you look at the specs of the hardware and cost of controllers the price isn't even that reasonable. So then the only advantage is size, so I'll concede to that. Though size is rarely ever an issue for anything.

And as for no default controller for the Raspberry Pi, you can buy 5 generic USB controllers for 50 bucks which for the same price you could only afford one(1) Ouya controller.

Not to mention the Ouya you buy now will already be outdated even more than it already is because they are planning on releasing these yearly. What a joke.
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« Reply #921 on: February 18, 2013, 03:11:46 PM »

just assume everyone has a xbox controller. its working on pc
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Richard Kain
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« Reply #922 on: February 18, 2013, 03:22:08 PM »

And as for no default controller for the Raspberry Pi, you can buy 5 generic USB controllers for 50 bucks which for the same price you could only afford one(1) Ouya controller.

As I already pointed out, the Raspberry PI is still not convenient to acquire. It's supply-constrained, and there is a wait list for ordering one and having it shipped to you from the UK.

And I shouldn't need to explain the importance of de-factor control standards to anyone familiar with modern game development. The controller that a system comes with defines the hardware platform. We've seen this with every major console release. The standardized input is one of the most important aspects of any home console.

You can do all the same things on a PC. But any capable gaming rig is going to cost more than the OUYA. And none of them will come with a standard controller either.

Why on earth would anyone be opposed to a company expanding the market by offering a more budget-friendly, affordable console?
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« Reply #923 on: February 18, 2013, 03:39:10 PM »

if you want customizable hardware though, why not just develop for raspberry pi?

No default controller.

No support for major game engines. (I'm currently working in Unity)

I want to develop games, not tech demos. The Raspberry PI was designed with low-level programming education in mind. I would prefer to work in an existing game engine that divorces me from low-level code as much as possible. I'm trying to cobble together prototypes and tools, not optimize collision engines.

Also, the Raspberry PI is continuously back-ordered, on account of it not having serious financial backing. It's also not available in retail stores. If the OUYA manages to do decent business, it could be a regular fixture at the local WalMart.

i still don't see how what you said is different than developing for android, except for the no default controller part. but the rest of what you said also applies to all android devices.

i think the only reason people like the ouya is that they like the "mystique" of developing for consoles and see that as somehow cooler than developing for PC or mobile phones. that also seemed to be why there were so many people excited about xblig (even though xblig in the end turned out to be terribly unprofitable for all but the top few games, the majority of which are minecraft clones). i remember a similar thread about 5 years ago in this forum when xblig was announced; a lot of people thought it was cool and were hyped to finally make games for a console, but others didn't see any advantage over PC and mobile
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« Reply #924 on: February 18, 2013, 03:43:16 PM »

Why on earth would anyone be opposed to a company expanding the market by offering a more budget-friendly, affordable console?

i don't think anyone is opposed to that, they just don't believe the ouya is doing that. the other pov is that ouya is largely a scam, might never be launched (it's already been delayed numerous times), and even if it is launched might not be very popular, that it's just an android device with a TV output, and that creating games for it is extremely restrictive because you're forced into in-game transactions and for other reasons, and that it's likely to be a piracy platform with an even higher piracy rate than the android already has (as well as all the other points against it mentioned in this 70 page thread that i'm forgetting)

also, affordable, when there's a new one released every year and the controller costs $50? maybe affordable to mitt romney's kids
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deathtotheweird
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« Reply #925 on: February 18, 2013, 03:56:54 PM »

An outdated console that is little more than an Android phone that hooks to your tv that has an extremely questionable business model (both at retail and it's marketplace) that is already announced to have yearly updates created by people with a pretty negligible record in hardware development. Excuse me for being a tad pessimistic.

As a consumer why would I buy the Ouya over the similarly priced Wii? As a developer why would I want to develop for the Ouya over a PC which is much more customizable and already has a huge user base already?

It will always be an inferior product, that's it's nature. It will never be better or even remotely equal to a more mainstream console and it will never be as flexible as a computer. So what you have is a rather niche device that will have a small user base.

And why would I waste my time developing for it when I can't even release my game how I want to on it?
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Garthy
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« Reply #926 on: February 18, 2013, 07:20:37 PM »

Wrote a big post, I have to say it was somewhat cathartic. In both senses of the word. Wink

I'm not going to post it though. I think in writing it, it served its purpose.

I will however say this:

It's a toy. Keep some perspective, people. It's just a toy. This thread has far too much vitriol and emotional investment for a discussion on a toy.

I wish the Ouya folks all the best, even if they're prone to the odd utterly bewildering decision from time to time. I hope that every person who has sunk money into it thus far ends up with something they are happy with. I'll be watching it with interest, and to be honest, a little excitement. I might even buy one, one day.
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« Reply #927 on: February 18, 2013, 07:25:10 PM »

it's not easy to think of it as a "toy" when there's a truck load of developers who think it's going to be comparable to the xbox 720 or wiiu next generation.
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SolarLune
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« Reply #928 on: February 18, 2013, 08:10:27 PM »

It's a toy. Keep some perspective, people. It's just a toy. This thread has far too much vitriol and emotional investment for a discussion on a toy.

You're completely correct. It's just a game console - it's not anything more than something to entertain yourself or others with.

@zalzane - I don't know how it's going to be comparable to next gen AAA game consoles (maybe after a few years, if it's exceptionally successful, it could be similar to the PSN or XBLA), but I think more focus on indie developers is a good thing. It seems like the Wii U is more open to indies so far, which is great to see. So, even if the Ouya / Game Stick / other open consoles end, it might be that the Steam console or Wii 3 or whatever will be the next low-cost open console.
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VDZ
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« Reply #929 on: February 18, 2013, 11:44:21 PM »

might never be launched (it's already been delayed numerous times)
Uh, when was Ouya EVER delayed? In all seriousness, I expected delays due to it being an ambitious project and it being from Kickstarter, but to this day it's still on schedule for a March release as was promised during the Kickstarter.
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