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July 23, 2014, 12:07:47 PM
TIGSource ForumsPlayerGamesOuya - New Game Console?
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Author Topic: Ouya - New Game Console?  (Read 90954 times)
ஒழுக்கின்மை
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« Reply #930 on: February 18, 2013, 11:48:24 PM »

might never be launched (it's already been delayed numerous times)
Uh, when was Ouya EVER delayed? In all seriousness, I expected delays due to it being an ambitious project and it being from Kickstarter, but to this day it's still on schedule for a March release as was promised during the Kickstarter.

no, read the site -- they're claiming a june release now
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« Reply #931 on: February 19, 2013, 12:00:40 AM »

Wrote a big post, I have to say it was somewhat cathartic. In both senses of the word. Wink

I'm not going to post it though. I think in writing it, it served its purpose.

I will however say this:

It's a toy. Keep some perspective, people. It's just a toy. This thread has far too much vitriol and emotional investment for a discussion on a toy.

I wish the Ouya folks all the best, even if they're prone to the odd utterly bewildering decision from time to time. I hope that every person who has sunk money into it thus far ends up with something they are happy with. I'll be watching it with interest, and to be honest, a little excitement. I might even buy one, one day.

but this also goes the other way -- remember that vid i linked to earlier where a guy enthusiastically proclaimed that the ouya is the savior of gaming, and will change the industry completely? if it's just a toy, why are so many people treating it as a religious experience?

also, although it's just a toy, don't underestimate its ability to cause harm. even toys kill kids if they choke on them. imagine an indie who spends a year or more developing an ouya game, only to get nothing in return (or maybe $200 in sales or something): that's the thing i'm most wary of: well-meaning and creative indie devs wasting their time developing games for a console that will either never be released or will have a limited audience, when they believe they are participating in the dawn of a new era or a revolution when they're just participating in either an intentional money-hungry scam or a quixotic delusion. after it disappoints, all that wasted effort will be a tragedy, it's just as bad as when developers enthusiastically learned microsoft silverlight and made games in it

so basically, it won't be just a toy to the idealist developers who wasted a year of their lives (or more) to a project that was doomed to failure. so i see pointing out exactly why it's not going to work as a sort of a charity work, hopefully steering naive younger developers away from it before they drink the kool-aid and get hoodwinked by all the hype. the tool that ouya developers think will get new people into game development may actually have the reverse effect, and scare people away from game development forever after they make a game for the ouya
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Garthy
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« Reply #932 on: February 19, 2013, 12:32:37 AM »


but this also goes the other way -- remember that vid i linked to earlier where a guy enthusiastically proclaimed that the ouya is the savior of gaming, and will change the industry completely? if it's just a toy, why are so many people treating it as a religious experience?

also, although it's just a toy, don't underestimate its ability to cause harm. even toys kill kids if they choke on them. imagine an indie who spends a year or more developing an ouya game, only to get nothing in return (or maybe $200 in sales or something): that's the thing i'm most wary of: well-meaning and creative indie devs wasting their time developing games for a console that will either never be released or will have a limited audience, when they believe they are participating in the dawn of a new era or a revolution when they're just participating in either an intentional money-hungry scam or a quixotic delusion. after it disappoints, all that wasted effort will be a tragedy, it's just as bad as when developers enthusiastically learned microsoft silverlight and made games in it

so basically, it won't be just a toy to the idealist developers who wasted a year of their lives (or more) to a project that was doomed to failure. so i see pointing out exactly why it's not going to work as a sort of a charity work, hopefully steering naive younger developers away from it before they drink the kool-aid and get hoodwinked by all the hype. the tool that ouya developers think will get new people into game development may actually have the reverse effect, and scare people away from game development forever after they make a game for the ouya

That's a fascinating rationalisation Paul. I especially like the bit where you draw the analogy between Ouya development and a tragedy where hundreds of people died.
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« Reply #933 on: February 19, 2013, 12:56:47 AM »

might never be launched (it's already been delayed numerous times)
Uh, when was Ouya EVER delayed? In all seriousness, I expected delays due to it being an ambitious project and it being from Kickstarter, but to this day it's still on schedule for a March release as was promised during the Kickstarter.

no, read the site -- they're claiming a june release now
No, they're perfectly on schedule - Kickstarter backers get their Ouya in March, Pre-orders until a certain date get their Ouya in April or May or something (not sure), and people ordering now get their Ouya in June.
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nikki
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« Reply #934 on: February 19, 2013, 01:13:40 AM »

but 'just toys' are the biggest things in our world.

we grow up on war between nintendo and sega.
the playmobil vs lego wars were during the same time at the carpetplace.
then the playstation vs n64 vs xbox wars came.
after that the big three console wars endured for some time.
since a few year we have the android vs apple wars
all the toymakers also start patent wars since a decade or so.

and now new armies are forming.

offcourse it is just consoles and toys. But at the same time an average person sinks 10/40 hr per week into that. That's just as important as religion or jobs or love or money or all the other things that are worth going to war over..

just toys... you are just meat/hair Wink
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zalzane
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« Reply #935 on: February 19, 2013, 01:19:20 AM »

That's a fascinating rationalisation Paul. I especially like the bit where you draw the analogy between Ouya development and a tragedy where hundreds of people died.


metaphors aren't the same thing as analogies. his metaphor is perfectly justified.
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VortexCortex
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« Reply #936 on: February 19, 2013, 01:47:21 AM »

What works to drive excitement, curiosity, and thus sales is footage of gameplay -- You want to experience that cool stuff you just saw, you have to buy the game.  Oh, but won't someone think of the players?!  What if they buy a crap game based on misleading videos?!  We already solved this in every damn app store: Satisfaction Guarantee Refunds.  You (impulse) buy the application / game, and try it out.  If you don't like it you get a full refund.  This is BETTER than the demo model because they don't need to wait to download the rest to keep on playing the game if they like it, and if the users hate it they can get a refund.  The end result is less work for the developer, streamlined sales, and more customers.

As a developer, I'd just disagree with you. But as a gamer, I just can't put it any other way than simply: fuck you.

You want me to buy your game out of ignorance; you want to omit the demo not because of any problems that would be involved in the creation of the demo, but because otherwise it would allow me to make an informed decision of whether or not I'll actually like the product I'm about to buy, instead of just forking over my cash and hope I didn't make a mistake. I pay you for providing me with entertainment, but you want me to pay even if I will not actually be entertained by it. You know what they call it when you trick people into buying something they do not want, and try to prevent them from making an informed decision? It's called a scam.

Fuck me?  Seriously?  WTF, man?

Note: I have already refuted everything you just wrote in the very part that you quoted.  Re-read the part where I said I'd provide in-game video footage, and a full refund if you try a game and don't like it.  Scam?  Woah, buddy, chill out.  Not only do you seem irrational, but you're also being willfully ignorant.  This isn't sane discourse, your comments reek of the kind of extreme reaction one might expect from a religious extremist if you question their beliefs.  Guh! That's some scary shit man.

Now, there are many valid reasons for not making a demo. Perhaps you don't have the time to make one. Perhaps a demo wouldn't be representative of the full game. Perhaps the amount of material required to be representative would make buying the full game unnecessary. But if you are an indie developer, rather than just some greedy corporate asshat, 'to make sure the customer doesn't find out he doesn't like the game enough to buy it' is NOT a valid reason for not releasing a demo.

My reasoning for not releasing a demo is too simple: There's no need, you can play the game "for free" by purchasing it, playing it, and returning it for a full refund -- It's not a retail store, there's no physical merchandise, it's quite simple to get your money back.  Furthermore: No one knows the best way to sell my games but me.  I'm the one who lives or dies by the decisions I make.  OUYA marketing model is flawed in that I have no choice but to be beholden to methods of sale that I know not to work for me.

Please understand that I have to make money to live.  I hate corporate asshatism as much an anyone -- I even turned down a secure job with health benefits writing soul-crushing corporate code to be a freelance programmer.  This is how I make a living working as a contract coder:  I don't sell multiple copies, I sell my labor once and move on to do more work.  Unfortunately I haven't bootstrapped myself into that model yet when it comes to games and mobile apps, so I must sell copies of artificially scarce bits.  The more money I make selling games the more I can afford to work on them instead of boring business code.

At the end of the day it takes more work for me to make a Demo + Game than to make a Game.  Add to that the fact that I experience less sales for my programs when there is a demo available, all those reasons you mention for not releasing a demo, and more; Then, you might see why I say this:

Quote from: me
I've done the math, and it's actually not worth my time to port a game to it as it stands -- I'd have to set up my own content delivery servers and host the "full version" content on my servers and use the "demo" as a stub down-loader client -- You download it, then pay to wait to download some more.  I just want to make games and sell them; I agree to give Google, Apple, Amazon, Microsoft, etc a cut of my profits because they're handling the distribution.

OUYA is making me do the distribution, or alternatively use IAPs to fund the game.  I hate DRM, so I'd rather not implement my own security software to verify download tokens are legit before I unlock the full game.  Putting limits in the full game and unlocking them with a code is folly.  That means the game really will be "most hackable", and even prone to preventing play if my server, or the OUYA servers are offline.  It would be easier to just give me an option to sell the game and give YOU, "as a game player", the option to get a refund if you don't like it.

Note: I have emailed the OUYA devs as a developer in hopes to raise awareness of this issue.  They don't want to listen and would rather try it their heavy handed way first -- They're betting big on free-to-play, and nothing will stop them, for now.  If they make enough success to continue in their current plan then It'll never be profitable for me to make games on their system.  However, if they respond to concerns that developers like myself have and implement a refund system for full-games without requiring a demo, then It'll be easy to port my code to their platform.

Don't get me wrong, I want OUYA to succeed, but I can't afford to run my own distribution service and DRM just to hack my non-free-to-play game to work on their free-to-play centric market.

Quote from: VDZ
I understand your point from a business perspective, detached from morals. But trying to profit by pushing your players into making purchases they regret is despicable.

You don't really seem to understand where I'm coming from at all.

I'm not pushing anyone, I'm actually lowering my prices until they think, "Oh what the hell, that's cheap enough to take a risk on!" -- A perceived risk that's actually been reduced to nothing since they can get a full refund.    Demos are obsolete.  They're not needed when full refunds are available; Demos are just extra work, and lead to less sales in some cases.  We solved your concerns in existing app stores.  OUYA doesn't like that solution; It's them you should be mad at.

OUYA doesn't want to give the customers the commonly granted right to get a refund if they're unsatisfied with the purchase.  You played the demo, you knew what you were getting yourself into.  Ever played a game that didn't live up to the level of gameplay showed off in the demo?  Want a refund?  Sure!  But not on OUYA.  Now, pull the wool out of your eyes, OUYA isn't more open. Compared to other Android devices it's more closed.  OUYA isn't bringing more freedom to developers or gamers -- It's removing freedoms compared to existing online software stores.  Go repeat your rant at the OUYA folks, because if you were railing at them instead of me you would actually make sense.

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Garthy
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« Reply #937 on: February 19, 2013, 01:59:42 AM »

but 'just toys' are the biggest things in our world.

we grow up on war between nintendo and sega.
the playmobil vs lego wars were during the same time at the carpetplace.
then the playstation vs n64 vs xbox wars came.
after that the big three console wars endured for some time.
since a few year we have the android vs apple wars
all the toymakers also start patent wars since a decade or so.

...

just toys... you are just meat/hair Wink

I like this.

I think my point, if I indeed had one in the first place, is that for most of us, it should just be a toy. Sure, to anyone who has gone all-in and risked everything as a Ouya-exclusive dev, or someone working on making the console a reality, it's going to be much more than that. But let's be honest, how many of those people are posting here? To almost all of us, it should just be a toy. A decidedly cool toy, maybe groundbreaking in a way, maybe more of the same, but still, at the end of the day, a toy.

Yet here we are.
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VDZ
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« Reply #938 on: February 19, 2013, 02:57:19 AM »

<long post>
The reason I didn't touch on the refund issue is because I have no experience with that system on mobile devices, so I'm not really fit to comment on them too much. But how many unsatisfied users actually use that system to get their money back when they regret their purchase? I know at least that in most other refund systems, it's a real hassle to get your money back (and no guarantee that you actually will after wasting your time) and the customer remains dissatisfied and regretting their purchase. Such systems are generally designed to discourage people from actually using them, only instilling false optimism, and are as such not a replacement for just allowing your customers to inform themselves properly. If the situation is different in the App Store or Google Play, please correct me on this part.
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Schoq
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« Reply #939 on: February 19, 2013, 08:54:00 AM »

then the playstation vs n64 vs xbox wars came.
after that the big three console wars endured for some time.
this isn't of consequence to anything but it needs to be pointed out that this isn't what happened
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« Reply #940 on: February 19, 2013, 10:03:12 AM »

That's a fascinating rationalisation Paul. I especially like the bit where you draw the analogy between Ouya development and a tragedy where hundreds of people died.

lol. Too soon, Paul!
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Richard Kain
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« Reply #941 on: February 19, 2013, 10:06:28 AM »

that's the thing i'm most wary of: well-meaning and creative indie devs wasting their time developing games for a console that will either never be released or will have a limited audience, when they believe they are participating in the dawn of a new era or a revolution when they're just participating in either an intentional money-hungry scam or a quixotic delusion. after it disappoints, all that wasted effort will be a tragedy, it's just as bad as when developers enthusiastically learned microsoft silverlight and made games in it

I'm currently developing using Unity, one of the most cross-platform friendly engines available. A large reason for me settling on Unity, despite the learning curve required, was it's strong cross-platform support. In this day and age, it's silly for any indie developer to go all-in on a specific platform. And most indie developers with a shred of experience have already learned this lesson.

The kind of fringe case you're describing would just be for inexperienced developers who are in need of a wake-up call. And the exact same argument can be applied to any and all hardware platforms. (such as the Kinect)
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ஒழுக்கின்மை
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« Reply #942 on: February 19, 2013, 10:18:46 AM »

That's a fascinating rationalisation Paul. I especially like the bit where you draw the analogy between Ouya development and a tragedy where hundreds of people died.

this feels like a distraction to avoid having to actually say anything of substance, but, for what it's worth, i didn't even know the origin of that phrase until i looked it up -- i've seen it widely used in all kinds of contexts, and it's become a fixture of the english language by now. it's used every day by millions of people who have no idea of its origin, much like other phrases with interesting but largely unknown origins. for instance, the word disaster means under an unfortunate star, and implies belief in astrology, but not everyone who uses the word disaster is promoting belief in astrology

anyway, it's also somewhat strange that you are accusing others of getting emotionally worked up over ouya, and yet your posts seem to be the biggest example of an out of proportion response to this thread (at least in the last few dozen pages). it was mostly people discussing whether or not the ouya will live up to its promises, but you're making it into questioning people's motivations and accusing people of rationalization and other passive-aggressive stuff

so basically "it's just a toy, a thing to have fun" has a counterpart: it's just a thread, a place to discuss things, no need for personal attacks. i think you're reading into the thread and thinking people are angrier than they are. i can't speak for everyone in the discussion, but i have no emotional feelings one way or the other towards the ouya, and i haven't observed an especially high amount of anger in this thread until your posts
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 10:38:14 AM by Paul Eres » Logged

ஒழுக்கின்மை
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« Reply #943 on: February 19, 2013, 10:24:13 AM »

rinku when did you stop usin upperdclass letters thats unprofessional

i never stopped; i still use upper case letters in formal contexts (such as my frontpage posts, my email newsletters, my site, my games, etc.). i use lower case in informal contexts because it's easier to type; my fingers are not conductive to the shift or caps lock key (my hands are literally 1 foot long each)
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 10:39:07 AM by Paul Eres » Logged

Christian Knudsen
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« Reply #944 on: February 19, 2013, 10:24:45 AM »

I'm confused... When did Paul refer to a tragedy that killed hundreds of people?
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