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878706 Posts in 32932 Topics- by 24343 Members - Latest Member: Good Enough Games

May 22, 2013, 12:49:33 PM
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Blademasterbobo
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« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2012, 12:40:31 PM »

I'm in computer engineering, but I'm basically self taught as far as programming goes. The problem (at least, at the school I'm at) is that... none of my peers learn shit from the programming courses here. Almost everyone has a lot of difficulty wrapping their heads around core concepts, and the professors have trouble explaining them. I don't know who's at fault here, but there seems to be some fundamental issue with how programming is taught. Maybe it's different at other schools? I doubt it, though. I'm guessing success rates are more tied to the school acceptance policies than different teaching methods.
    
I have trouble recommending CS majors for people, because of this, but a degree is a basic requirement for quite a few CS jobs. This is more true for engineering jobs. I think for most of your college choices, though, you'll have to teach yourself if you want to actually learn anything. And I'm at a school with small class sizes; if you're in some lecture hall type setting, good luck learning shit from that. Might as well not show up to class for those, imo. You cannot expect to actually learn things from lectures and class assignments alone.

If you want a college that's not a complete scam, maybe look at public unis? I don't mean for this to sound insulting, but those SAT scores are going to hurt you as far as the major private schools go, unless you've done a lot of extracurricular stuff or you can write an amazing application essay or something. (Probably still worth applying, if you want to, because who knows?) Plus, private schools are fucking expensive, and they simply do not care about undergrads for the most part. Undergrad at most private schools is basically a fucking joke, and it seems like they only bother with it because they have to. (They make their income from research / postgrad stuff and alumni donations, etc.)

Finally, the difference between computer engineering and electrical engineering is that computer engineering tends to focus more on computer architecture type stuff, integrated circuits, micro controllers, and so on, while electrical engineering has a variety of things you can choose to focus on. (Most of the EE majors here focus on power, probably just because the jobs pay well.)
« Last Edit: July 15, 2012, 12:45:36 PM by Blademasterbobo » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2012, 01:19:07 PM »

I'm in computer engineering, but I'm basically self taught as far as programming goes. The problem (at least, at the school I'm at) is that... none of my peers learn shit from the programming courses here. Almost everyone has a lot of difficulty wrapping their heads around core concepts, and the professors have trouble explaining them. I don't know who's at fault here, but there seems to be some fundamental issue with how programming is taught. Maybe it's different at other schools? I doubt it, though. I'm guessing success rates are more tied to the school acceptance policies than different teaching methods.
    
I have trouble recommending CS majors for people, because of this, but a degree is a basic requirement for quite a few CS jobs. This is more true for engineering jobs. I think for most of your college choices, though, you'll have to teach yourself if you want to actually learn anything. And I'm at a school with small class sizes; if you're in some lecture hall type setting, good luck learning shit from that. Might as well not show up to class for those, imo. You cannot expect to actually learn things from lectures and class assignments alone.

If you want a college that's not a complete scam, maybe look at public unis? I don't mean for this to sound insulting, but those SAT scores are going to hurt you as far as the major private schools go, unless you've done a lot of extracurricular stuff or you can write an amazing application essay or something. (Probably still worth applying, if you want to, because who knows?) Plus, private schools are fucking expensive, and they simply do not care about undergrads for the most part. Undergrad at most private schools is basically a fucking joke, and it seems like they only bother with it because they have to. (They make their income from research / postgrad stuff and alumni donations, etc.)

Finally, the difference between computer engineering and electrical engineering is that computer engineering tends to focus more on computer architecture type stuff, integrated circuits, micro controllers, and so on, while electrical engineering has a variety of things you can choose to focus on. (Most of the EE majors here focus on power, probably just because the jobs pay well.)

Not offended, I understand my scores are nothing special Smiley. Hate to sound like a broken record but thanks for the info this is all helping a lot.
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« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2012, 11:25:04 PM »

I think a lot of schools don't teach programming all that well. Well, languages and compilers and thing might get covered, but I've always been more or less confused by software architecture design. I don't know how many colleges actually have you complete full real-world  projects that have you tie everything together instead of just doing piecemeal learning of programming languages and data structures and things.
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Μarkham
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« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2012, 11:54:06 PM »

The university I go to has a sort of wall that people hit a lot in the Computer Science department as well.  It's mostly two - CS236 and CS250 - One is "Intro to Computational Theory" and the other involves computational language and grammar structure and building a "Datalog" data-basing engine.

There's also a third issue that is affecting a lot of people - the CS department decided that instead of starting out teaching Java and switching to teaching C++ after the two hard classes, they should instead do the complete opposite and screw over anyone caught in the middle of this.  Taking the class involving programming a data-basing engine that merged and split unrelated tables and evaluated search results that assumed you took all previous classes with C++ when you've only learned Java did not go too well.
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« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2012, 04:21:42 AM »

It's great that you're going for a real CS degree.
I understand why many people might thought college was useless, but in the long run, it will help you.
Completing college with good grades shows a certain quality about yourself, which will help landing your first job. But most importantly, your friends in college will most likely be the ones that can help you the most, both professionally and socially, for the next 70 years of your life.

And man, all the girls... If I didn't have to work I'd definitely go back to college for a couple more years...
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Fallsburg
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« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2012, 05:34:38 AM »

Things to note:
Computer Science != Programming
Programming is a component of computer science, but there is just as much, if not more, of an emphasis on hardcore logic and math (varies by school). 

As for real vs scam.  Avoid for profit schools, those are scams (there are exceptions to the rule, but it's a pretty good rule).  Look up potential schools at Princeton review or U.S. news and world report. See what fits your lifestyle/workstyle.

Visit schools.  You are going to be spending a lot of money and a lot of time, you want the decision to be a good one.

Blademasterbobo makes a great point about the public universities.  You are in Massachusetts, so you have a good school in UMass right there (well, a lot of places since there are like a thousand different branches).  School is what you make of it.  You can spend 40,000+ a year, waste your time, and come out no better.  Or you can go to a less expensive public school, take every opportunity that presents itself, and learn a lot.  Or anywhere in between the two. 

The thing that an expensive school buys you is the name on a resume.  It's stupid, but it's a real thing.  But good internships and possibly a publication will do just as much, and probably more, in helping you out.


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« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2012, 05:59:02 AM »

I second Fallsburg's advice, you need to review what the top schools are in your area using reports such as those linked above. Personally, I majored with degrees in computer science and philosophy and can say with certainty that getting the compsci degree has opened up opportunities. However I think it's important to approach school with reasonable expectations. Don't simply sit through your classes for four years. As a student you will have tons of free time. Use that time to make games, learn new technologies, and generally better yourself. Second, try to use the opportunity to meet people and establish lifelong connections. If you're fortunate you'll graduate with strong practical skills, a solid theoretically base, and partners interested in working with you.
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cskau
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« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2012, 06:13:29 AM »

I think a lot of schools don't teach programming all that well. Well, languages and compilers and thing might get covered, but I've always been more or less confused by software architecture design. I don't know how many colleges actually have you complete full real-world  projects that have you tie everything together instead of just doing piecemeal learning of programming languages and data structures and things.

This is true to some extend, especially if you do Computer Science.
I think a lot of places emphasize the Science part, which is why for a lot people actual coding seems to be under represented.
Any good CS program will include, as mentioned, purely theoretical courses like Computational Theory and advanced maths.
It has often been discussed in tech crowds like Hacker News whether it's even CS's job to teach you basic skills like coding and project management. Some would in fact say that that has more to do with Computer Engineering or the likes.

But that whole discussion aside, simply be aware of this trend and plan accordingly.
If you're already a decent coder then I bet you won't have much trouble picking up the rest as you go along with your CS degree.
If you aren't then you should either prepare for a lot of catching up in the first year or so, or probably even start getting in to coding now. The sooner the better.

Don't expect to learn to code in college. You might, but don't hinge you academic success on it.

Now again with the anecdotes..
When I started my Bach in CS I knew how to code to some degree. I'd started out in Visual Basic ages ago, slowly gotten started with C++ later on and finally fallen in love with Python.
I briefly worked with Java in high school but always hated the thing.
I think the most important thing I learned from working with these things beforehand was not getting too tied down to a single language/environment. This is a skill you'll absolutely need later on.

During your studies you will invariantly have to work with different things you've never worked with before, so having the skill to transfer things you've learned in other languages is absolutely invaluable.
One day you'll be writing a calculator in Java, the next you'll be modifying the scheduler in the Linux kernel using low-level C, then the day after that you'll be writing an interpreter in Scheme's functional programming style.

Once you've got a bit of experience if different languages, syntaxes, environments and paradigms, you'll slowly get a more high-level, abstract understanding of the mechanisms at work.
And the more programming becomes simply a tool, the more you'll be able to focus on what you're using it for. You should be learning how to build awesome calculators not learning Java. You should be learning how schedulers work not learning C. You get the picture..

I know this might sound intimidating, but all I wan't to say is really just that I've always felt incredibly lucky that I knew at least a little programming before starting my Bach.
It meant I could focus on solving the task at hand, while my classmates were struggling with Java.


Now enough of those ramblings..

The last point I'd like to get through is how this again highlights the importance of knowing the schools focus and course catalogue.
I've been incredibly lucky to go to a school that had both the theoretical as well as the more practical courses. I'm really not a very theoretical guy.
The theory is important, but despite knowing programming well enough I enjoyed the Software Architecture course immensely for being a course that included managing a big project. (We did a Civilization clone from scratch)
Before taking it I had no idea how to structure and manage a big project so I learned lots. I even ended up TA'ing the class later on just to be able to "take" it again.


Completing college with good grades shows a certain quality about yourself, which will help landing your first job.
I hear it's slightly different in the states but at least for me grades haven't played that much of a role. And any reasonable intelligent employer will look more at your skills than your grades.
What good are skills in ace'ing exams when there are no exams out there in the real life, only the job at hand? Smiley

For measure my "career" so far has been:
- Doing open source in my spare time.
- Part time job as a Web Developer (PHP) the first year and a half on my Bach.
Utilizing my network (fancy wording for asking my friend) I then moved on to:
- Part time Backend Developer (.NET) for a startup which was more up my alley.
Then using the skills and credit I'd built over the years I applied for and got:
- Internship in Japan at that big search company .. you know which one.
Finally utilizing all of the above I managed to get myself accepted into:
- Master's at a top university plus a government scholarship.

Now bear in mind that my grades really aren't that great. They're rather mediocre if I should say so myself.
Skills on the other hand mean everything when you're doing technical interviews.
Pay attention in the theory courses, hone your practical skills and get your hands dirty with some real world projects be they open source or at a company. And don't mind too much if your grades aren't straight As.


Anyways, if you've got more questions don't hesitate to ask and feel free to PM me if you'd like more anecdotes Wink
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Fallsburg
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« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2012, 06:36:07 AM »

I hear it's slightly different in the states but at least for me grades haven't played that much of a role. And any reasonable intelligent employer will look more at your skills than your grades.
Well, all I know is that my company won't even consider someone unless they have a 3.5/4 or higher.  Obviously, that's not enough to get you a job, but it is necessary to open the door.

I personally don't find skills to be THAT important.  What I do find to be important is the ability to learn.  Skills fade, become outdated, etc.  The ability to learn means that you will always have the skills necessary to do the job.  And that is actually what I think college is best at, teaching people how to learn (or at least, that's what a good college does).

As for majors, the actual major doesn't matter too much for a lot of careers.  If you are looking to go into a technical field, you are going to need to learn 3 things:
1) Math -- I heartily recommend a decent level of calculus (up through Diff Eq is good), linear algebra, and probability/statistics (at a level that incorporates calculus).  Those 3 will cover your ass for 99% of the math done in the real world.
2) Programming -- As I said earlier, Computer Science != Programming.  And the converse is true, Programming != Computer Science.  You will program in just about any technical field.  It might be in SAS or Matlab or whatever, but most technical fields use programming these days.  So don't worry too much about what major you take, because you will probably learn programming.  That isn't to say that CS isn't valuable.  I was a CS/Math double major, and CS was great for learning how to approach problems systematically and logically.
3) Research -- Learning how to research is important.  Reading papers critically will help you a ton.  There are a lot of smart people out there, doing amazing things.  Learning how to leverage that will make you all the better.


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« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2012, 07:30:02 AM »

I hear it's slightly different in the states but at least for me grades haven't played that much of a role. And any reasonable intelligent employer will look more at your skills than your grades.
Well, all I know is that my company won't even consider someone unless they have a 3.5/4 or higher.  Obviously, that's not enough to get you a job, but it is necessary to open the door.

Wow I'm always amazed when I hear this sort of thing. Grades seem to me like such a bad metric for actual skills.
Around here most exams are oral with ~15-20 min presentation of a randomly drawn topic in the course. The outcome I always feel are normal distributed around your actual skills in the course. Sometimes you're lucky, get a good topic and win. Other times you're unlucky, get a bad topic and lose.
And unless you completely fail the exam you can't redo it for a better grade later on.

I managed to dig out an old estimate of my GPA which is about 3.0. (though we don't have GPA around here)
So to think that my application would be binned right away makes me think about what other stupid hiring decisions they make at a place like that. Why would I want to work at a place like that?
(I'm just being extremely opinionated of course, so take no offence. I'm sure you're a great hire with both grades and skills, Fallsburg Smiley)

What I do find to be important is the ability to learn. Skills fade, become outdated, etc.  The ability to learn means that you will always have the skills necessary to do the job.  And that is actually what I think college is best at, teaching people how to learn (or at least, that's what a good college does).
I hope this is what I was also getting at.
And by skills I don't mean being able to operate Microsoft Word or even being able to write a programs in Visual Basic.
I mean the kind of skills that don't go out of fashion next year like having a feel for complexity theory, understanding that there are more than one paradigm in programming and being able to manage a project, to name a few. Smiley
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Fallsburg
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« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2012, 08:28:33 AM »

Wow I'm always amazed when I hear this sort of thing. Grades seem to me like such a bad metric for actual skills.
Around here most exams are oral with ~15-20 min presentation of a randomly drawn topic in the course. The outcome I always feel are normal distributed around your actual skills in the course. Sometimes you're lucky, get a good topic and win. Other times you're unlucky, get a bad topic and lose.
And unless you completely fail the exam you can't redo it for a better grade later on.

Well, my stance is that good grades aren't a good indicator for future success, but bad grades are a pretty decent indicator for future success. 
In my opinion, it's pretty easy to get good grades (at least in the U.S.), but you have to fuck up pretty hard to get bad grades.  And if you are fucking up that hard, then we probably aren't going to consider you.  Most schools want you to succeed.  It doesn't look good for their statistics if students are failing. They will do everything in their power to help you not fail.
Most schools have TA's, office hours, and even one on one tutoring.  That's in addition to study groups, the library, the internet, and just good old fashioned hard work.  So if you aren't able to get above a B with all of these things available to you, then my belief is that you are either out of your depth or you just aren't trying hard enough.  Either way, we probably don't want you working for us. 
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« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2012, 10:18:28 AM »

In my opinion, it's pretty easy to get good grades (at least in the U.S.), but you have to fuck up pretty hard to get bad grades.
Ah there we have it then - I don't think grade inflation is as bad around here as it is in the states. An A is an exceptional grade, not something everyone is expected to get here.

For the interested I'll leave you this little chart of grades from the past 5 years of compiler course:
Grades 2007 - 2011

Note how the grades seem to be something like normal distributed around C or B, which is considered "good" and "remarkable" respectively.
I guess that only goes to show the uselessness of comparing across different scales.

I apologies if we're slowly getting off topic Poe, but I hope you at least enjoy the different perspectives. Smiley
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« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2012, 10:57:14 AM »

No problem at all.
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« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2012, 12:21:14 PM »

You'll hang around for nerd poontang for a few months, realize that what they are teaching you is bullshit, and then drop out with an outstanding student loan.

This. Most colleges are a massive scam. Make sure you get educated before attempting to get educated:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A75KERKwEQM

PROTIP: Portfolio is far more relevant than a degree in the game industry.
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« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2012, 12:26:55 PM »

Game company: Tell me why we should I hire you.
You: Well, I made a game.
Game company: You're hired.

OR

Game company: Tell me why we should I hire you.
You: Here's my expensive degree.
Game company: K, I'll put it in the pile.
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