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May 20, 2013, 06:52:49 AM
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Gimym TILBERT
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« Reply #210 on: July 23, 2012, 05:51:00 AM »

By replayability I never meant the modern stupid Easter egg equivalent, modern sandbox have fake exploration with fake replayability , do we do agree
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moi
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« Reply #211 on: July 23, 2012, 05:57:07 AM »

It depends, do you do you st tropez?
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lelebęcülo
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« Reply #212 on: July 23, 2012, 07:20:08 AM »

classic replayable: tetris.
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Alevice
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« Reply #213 on: July 23, 2012, 07:42:01 AM »

Mass Effect powers (and levelling) are similar. They are there for role-playing a tactician, instead of being one.

Play Hardcore or Insanity and tell that to me again.
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Graham.
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« Reply #214 on: July 23, 2012, 08:10:43 AM »

You're right. I'm not trying to belittle the experience.

What is my point.... There is this division between how the options are presented and how they actually function. ... I make similar comments to people who don't see the tactics in an RPG (say FF): fight fewer battles. However, when you ramp the difficulty, say in FF, half the spells become useless. A lot of the options that are presented to you aren't real options. But that's not so bad, because there are so many options to begin with that losing a ton isn't a huge hit. Deciding which ones are the cool ones is part of the fun.

Mass Effect and Bioshock give this illusion that you're making these significant choices, but when you get down to the math you're making minor ones. I haven't played either of these games at high levels - I prefer shooters for shooting. But some day I'd like to. I imagine the small differences become big ones when you ramp the difficulty. But this difference (in choice) is at odds with how the options are originally presented. There is this "figuring out" phase you need to go through to find out what a power really does, which is part of the experience for a lot gamers, but is really this separate meta-game going on inside the main one.

Mario's powerups for example offer "real"(tm) choice. To an unskilled, and very skilled, player they present the same kind of options relative to the player's situation. The skilled player will be able to do far more, and thus will see areas of possibility that are unavailable to the unskilled player, but to the unskilled, the skilled player's actions will seem like a logical extension of what he himself was trying to do with the same powerups.

WoW and DII have this superficial "choice" element as well in their skill trees. The function of a power as its presented, and its actual function are divided by this invisible barrier that can only be crossed by figuring out the meta-game. The meta-game is interesting, but once you figure it out the game becomes far less about choice, and more about calculation. It's like the aesthetic design (narrative etc) is at odds with the mechanics.

There's this great ep of Extra Credits where they talk about choice: incomparables and calculations. I'm kind of channeling it right now.

Choice is an illusion really. You can give a hoola-hoop to a child and they may see a million choices, and then make several thousand over the course of a summer. You can give a blank page and pencil to an adult and they will see 0, paralyzed by analysis. A Zen master will say that infinite choice exists in any moment, in any position, if you can silence the mind.

Minecraft may give someone a lot of choice - I have a step-brother (aged 11) who plays it more than he does anything else other than being at school. Mass Effect gave you a lot of choice. I felt some choice. I was somewhat aware of the rest, but getting to that point required me to play a different game, which I didn't want to play, for whatever reason. I didn't play it incorrectly. There was a richer experience with a toll booth in front, so my observation about available choice is a personal one - as it always is. But, Mass Effect is designed in such a way so that a such an experience for a player is more likely than it would've have been if it were designed in a different way.

You could say implementing choice in a game is about providing the structure so that players become aware of choices. Guitar Hero, for example, provides very little obvious choice. But people find the experience personal, because they relate to the actual music, make choices in their mind about whatever it is that they are thinking about as stimulated by the music, and relate that to their performace. The game becomse like a partial observer of their mental stream, controlling a series of choices that are really nothing to do with the mechanics themselves, just the music, which was created by someone else. Accessible choice: power of rhythm games.

I'm glad for your comment. It made me think.
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Alevice
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« Reply #215 on: July 23, 2012, 08:42:20 AM »

I know you have a point, but being so vague abut what you mean about choices doesn't really clear up your stance. Like for example, what do you mean by "But, Mass Effect is designed in such a way so that a such an experience for a player is more likely than it would've have been if it were designed in a different way."? Give an example or something.
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Graham.
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« Reply #216 on: July 23, 2012, 09:26:34 AM »

Smiley. I get accused of vagueness fairly often.

I'm not saying you're "wrong" or anything. I'm sure that a lot of players see choice in Mass Effect
to the degree that I'm assuming that you implied that you have. I'm sure I could've been one of the those player if my life was going differently at the time when I played. I may even be when I go through ME3 - something I haven't done yet.

I'm saying that this dis-illusionment with choice in games such as ME is not uncommon. eva brought it up, I can relate to it, Jon Blow did a talk on Bioshock's examples. Mass Effect has "stream-lined" updgrade paths for the chars. Those, even at high-level, I'm sure aren't nearly as varied as the game would have you believe. ME even had that issue with the ending, where choice was finally shown to be superficial. These patterns are there. I can't definitively say how much choice is present, just that I feel there is a missed opportunity.

I was actually trying to avoid re-designing ME for them, because it's less work. But since you asked, I don't mind.

I haven't played in a while, so I'll reference the powerups in general ways.

Shooting is a complex game. Just dealing with positioning, timing, reload speeds, ammo clips sizes, appropriate ranges, enemy health, AI patterns (particularly generalities that apply to all enemies), damage you take per attack type, blast radiuses, average cover setups in standard situations, how fast you can move between cover once you get in the groove etc. There is a big difference between mouse work and controller work. Just getting into a shooting game, with no powerups, is challenging. There is a lot of choice inherent in any well built shooter, even with no guns and simple level designs and one AI. Throwing all that together makes play confusing.

I don't think the Bioware guys spent a lot of time understanding what a good shooter is before adding all those powerups. They are RPG devs. They make excellent RPGs. But once you throw in shooting, what options the player actually has grows drastically, in very different ways than it does in RPGs. It's hard to know how a powerup will affect gameplay without first having a very good understanding of all the different ways in which a shooter can played.

The first ME was more RPGish, then it went towards being more of a shooter, successfully, as fans and the press seemed to say. I agreed with them. I put down ME1 b/c I found the shooting bland. I'll probably go back to it.

I think that best summarizes it: the powerups (in ME) are RPG powerups in a shooter. They haven't made the transition yet.

I have to learn all these things that are specific to the game, including squad controls, then these powerups hit my face and I don't understand what's going on. I can cast a spell that raises a guy in the air for 0.8 seconds at a range of 10m? What the hell does that mean? I have no freaking clue. In Baldur's Gate I would because everything I do is in ranges and cast times and effect durations; the powerup is a direct translation of the existing gameplay patterns; I understand the relationship in my mind. But in ME that relationship is confusing. The menus present the powerup choices with lore and all this stuff, but that isn't really what's going on with them. The lore behind a fireball in Baldur's kind of sells its function. The lore behind lifting a dude in the air in Mass Effect doesn't, including how it's animated (especially), what it's called and so on.

Maybe it's more appropriate to say the ME gives you choices, but throws them at you when you're already trying to handle so many variables mentally that you can't relate to them. An extra few spices in a dish may mean nothing to a novice chef, but may make a world of difference in its reception by consumers.

Are the different powerups meaningfully different? I don't know as a regular player. In what way do they affect my strategy? Maybe one powerup is good for a novice, but is useless to an experienced player because he can use the basic mechanics to nullify its value (i.e. find better solutions to the problems itčs meant to solve). How does a powerup affect play? What does good play look like? I can't understand how a powerup will enhance my strategy if I don't have an understanding of my strategy is.

I can't prove the powerups are useless. I know for sure a lot the skills in DII and WoW are, because the internet knows. Shooting is hard because there's far too many player-execution variables. But I know understanding their role is confusing.

If I redid Mass Effect, I would keep the powers. But I would find out what the shooting mechanics really were. I would record players playing. I would draw graphs and charts of all the ways players can play. Then I would make sure that the player is being taught, through play, what I/we haved determined to be the core skills of an ME player. Then I would hand out powerups at the right pace so that the player is always making a decision that they understand the consequences of, because they have a vocabulary for how they are playing - they can visualize it. Then I would match the lore (of the powerups) to their function, and embed that lore into the actual story, instead of being these isolated off-shoots. I would probably have to tweak the function of each power so its actual battle use reflects its appearance and "narrative-function".

I don't know if that's what you're looking for.

Extra Credits puts it nicely: a lot of game fall in the habit of masking calculations as incomparables. Making a powerup choice in ME is presented in a narrative way. Ok. Is the narrative function comparable to the mechanical function? I have no idea without delving into the meta-game. Am I really making a personal choice, or is there one best choice, or one best choice given my play style? I have no idea, without delving into the meta-game. Maybe there is no best choice most of the time, and good fundamentals are all that really matter. I have no idea. My decision might matter, it might not. I don't know.

Mario using a star: even a first-time player understands immediately what that does, and how it affects what is available to him. Some powerup in ME? The player might actually know. They might think they know and be right, or wrong. They might not know and know they know that. They might not know and believe there is no possible knowing. They might sort-of know, and think they know the right way to investigate, but be wrong about that and end up knowing less than they originally did. There's a lot of this stuff.

Bioware presents these choices, then does all this hand-wavy stuff, and connects these choices to results, that I'm not even sure they always understand. So the player makes a choice, sort-of understands the results, but believes in his choice so stays immersed. This pattern is present for the action choices and the story choices. How the decisions affect the game, and how they feel to us when we don't think too hard about how they affect the game, have this really big divide. Sometimes we can fall for it, sometimes we can't.

I managed to get immersed in ME2. I liked it. I would've liked it even more if my action decisions were clear-cut like they were in HL2. I would've liked it even more if my leveling decisions had clear consequences like they did for me in Grandia II. Maybe these things were clear to a lot of people (like you). But they weren't clear to a lot too (like me). Whatever that is, I want to actually know what I'm deciding when I'm deciding. There's a lot of ways to do that (from the dev's perspective). All of game design is there. The only metric is: does the player understand the meaning of this choice? Or, is the development of his understanding natural? Or, is this true for as many players as possible?

I'm only talking from instinct. I can't prove anything.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 10:20:17 AM by toast_trip » Logged

J-Snake
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« Reply #217 on: July 23, 2012, 11:06:20 AM »

classic replayable: tetris.
My mom's favourite and only game, seriously.
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Graham.
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« Reply #218 on: July 23, 2012, 11:14:56 AM »

That's saying a lot.

Bejewelled: the modern, positive-affirmation, Tetris.
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st33d
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« Reply #219 on: July 23, 2012, 11:15:22 AM »

What the hell does someone who likes only FPS doing on an indie forum?

I mean if you don't like puzzles, platformers, puzzle-platformers or platformer-puzzles, why even bother posting?
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Charlie Sheen
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« Reply #220 on: July 23, 2012, 11:19:55 AM »

ive said i dont like sandboxes, that includes minecraft. its survival aspect has potential, but it just comes down to punching trees.

hello eva, im gonna be a little analytical here and i know you hate this, but who cares.

the difference between sandboxes and non-sandboxes is a very trivial one if you look at it from the perspective of the player (not from the perspective of the designer, which is a common mistake made by the theorists, designers, players and others). the difference between the two is this -- one takes quite a bit of time to figure out what the (most interesting) goal of the game is, the other doesn't. that's it!

quite clearly, a sandbox game, by definition, isn't necessarily boring.
HOWEVER, by using the power of induction, you may conclude that sandbox games are boring (that is, most of the sandbox games have been boring therefore sandbox games are fucking boring). that might be true, I can't tell myself.

but just to clear this once and for all.

thank you for your patience.
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moi
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« Reply #221 on: July 23, 2012, 11:28:25 AM »

o hello dums
I see you not understood my post, and you continue posting about you are crap indie games and nostalgia olds,
the simeple is rule:

1)IF YOURE GAM IS NOT GEARS OF WARS, I'LL UNINSTALL YOUR GAEM

it' simpel , don't try to make me play a game that is not gears

klaklaklaklaflllllll1l1l1l1lluflufluf
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lelebęcülo
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« Reply #222 on: July 23, 2012, 11:33:59 AM »

you forgot halo and other console FPS games; she doesn't mind *some* of those
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J-Snake
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« Reply #223 on: July 23, 2012, 11:56:25 AM »

the difference between sandboxes and non-sandboxes is a very trivial one if you look at it from the perspective of the player (not from the perspective of the designer, which is a common mistake made by the theorists, designers, players and others). the difference between the two is this -- one takes quite a bit of time to figure out what the (most interesting) goal of the game is, the other doesn't. that's it!


You might replay far cry to discover some playability.

But why is that a common mistake? It follows straightly from definition of sandbox.
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msilver
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« Reply #224 on: July 23, 2012, 11:58:58 AM »

But what does eva do when she's finished playing Flower?
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