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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperPlaytestingbefungeRL: an esoteric programming language puzzle adventure
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« on: August 04, 2012, 03:11:18 PM »

befungeRL



Hi, this is my current project. I started it as a break from another project during the 7 Day Roguelike challenge, here I am several months later and I finally have something that might be worth playing. This game combines the esoteric and obfuscated programming language befunge with a puzzle adventure type of roguelike game.

Befunge is a lot like another esoteric programming language brainfuck in that it has single character instructions, and it was made to be confusing and amusing but isn’t usually used as a ‘real’ programming language. Whereas brainfuck only has 8 instructions and is executed linearly, befunge uses almost every character you can type on a standard keyboard and runs in a self modifying 2d plane, and the direction of the instruction pointer frequently changes while a program is running. You don’t need any previous befunge experience to play my game, and in fact if you are already too adept you might end up sidestepping some otherwise fun challenges.

Although “RL” is stuck to the end of the game’s title signifying roguelike, the game in it’s current form lacks a lot of signature features of a roguelike. For instance there is no level randomization, no perma-death, and nothing resembling the D&D-like mechanics most roguelike games use. Still, a “befunge roguelike” was the initial idea that got the ball rolling and although some of the features don’t work well with the tangled puzzle levels in the game right now, the player could very well find a dungeon that offers randomized challenges later on down the road. This is still very much a work in progress. Also, this game will on occasion kill the shit out of you, much like a good roguelike would.

Also also, this can seem like a straightforward puzzle game at first, buy you will really have to think outside of the box, and then think outside of that box that you had just got done establishing when you thought outside of the previous box. It's less a casual puzzle than Legend of Zelda on acid, or a Japanese puzzle box made by Shintaro Kago.

The game hasn’t been shown previously and so hasn’t been thoroughly tested, please let me know if you have any issues in certain browsers or operating systems, or if you find bugs or problems. Any feedback whatsoever is appreciated.

There are a few specific things I'm looking for feedback on too. Because of this game's subject / inspiration it is probably the nichest goddamn thing I could possibly have made. My fear is the average player will hit a point where there is just too much confusion, or is assaulted with too much at once and simply quits the game. Eva would obviously uninstall on screen one (since it's a flash game she would probably uninstall whatever browser she was using in a fit of rage) but I am worried that someone reasonably interested in the premise might have their eyes blur over and lose patience very early or when complicated things get introduced. If you happen to try this game and this fate befalls you I would be ever so grateful if you could tell me 1.your level of nerdiness ("I'm mostly familiar w/ pokemons and have only used GML", vs "I already wrote a befunge compiler and make roguelikes in my sleep dog"), and 2.where you ragequit and why.






To anyone else reading this thread, I would love it if you would try the game before reading other people's feedback or my responses, I need to see what people "going in dry" think first and foremost Smiley


To the curious the following befunge instructions aren’t yet implemented in the game and will act as an ‘r’ instruction (reflect): &,~,=,(,),i,o,k,h,t,{,},u,s, and y.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 11:51:29 PM by cystem glitch » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2012, 05:02:41 PM »

I've used and read about a lot of programming languages, but I'd never heard of Befunge until now. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. It's a really cool, unique idea for a language.

Anyway, I tried your game. Two things that bugged me from the start were:

1) That the program ends right away. A little more time would've been nice, because at first I thought the game was just broken. I like how level 2 begins better.

2) That the code resets when the program ends, so I have to rewrite everything every time.

I also found it weird that the game doesn't tell you what your goal is. I figured out where the ending of the level was, but I'm not sure if there's more I'm supposed to do. Level 2 is even less clear, because the space-bar doesn't work on the most important instruction there.

Level 2 is really giving me trouble. I'm guessing I need to get the program to write something, but trying to store characters in the stack just results in the cursor bouncing back. My guess is that I'm probably missing something, since this is the first I've seen of Befunge.

I do like the idea of the game a lot, though, and it works pretty well. If I can manage to get past the second level, I'd like to see more of it.


Edit: Oh wow. Level 2 was so incredibly simple. I can't believe I didn't realize it. Tongue  Maybe that's the problem with not telling people what their goal is? My mind jumped to the conclusion that all that stuff in the level was necessary, when it really wasn't. Were those words and characters purposely put in there to throw me off?

Level 3 was pretty easy too. One issue: this seemed like a really good way to learn the language, until I looked and couldn't find any mention of the "j" command in Befunge. I take it you added that so you could make more interesting puzzles?

Edit 2: Does level 5 have an ending? I printed the number, but nothing seemed to change and I don't see an ending anywhere. The door was still locked.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 05:25:41 PM by Quicksand-S » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2012, 06:28:27 PM »

thank you so much, your feedback has been invaluable!

For level 2, I was naively assuming people would be confused by what was happening with weird characters at the bottom, and would have to come back later when they had learned more - this was foolish! Any player interested in a game like this would be challenged to learn what was going on right away and would start tinkering... which in your case led you away from the obvious use of the easy new instruction. I have come up with a solution, I created a new type of block that can screen parts of the level, hiding the characters beneath. I will give the player a tool to dismantle these blocks, but not until later. I was in a hurry to add what I just now put in place so it looks kind of janky graphically, but it gets the job done for now.

I am happiest that you didn't quit on level 3, not because any of the concepts there are difficult, but just because I thought it might have been info overload just from how much text is plastered everywhere. You have given me some hope in this regard!

In level 5 once you have the "key" printed to the console, you merely have to touch the lock for it to be removed. This is something that I didn't think to note in the text, but I will try and think up a better way to word it - again I would never have thought to fix this so thank you for the feedback.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2012, 12:47:51 AM by cystem glitch » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2012, 06:51:02 PM »

Yeah, level 3 did look pretty overwhelming, but the concept was pretty simple. Just had to sit back and see what was happening. I found the speed of the cursor a little bit of a hindrance to that. It jumps around so much, and so quickly, that it was hard to get a handle on things at first.

For level 5, I did have the key printed there, but when I touched the "lock" nothing happened.

I think the most important change that I'd recommend would be to leave code in place when the program ends. Having to rewrite everything from scratch when I messed up really took the fun out of it. I'd say you should still let manually "resetting" the level clear everything, though.

Edit: I tried the key again on level 5. It looks fine but doesn't work. Not sure what's going on.

Oh yeah, another thing I should mention is that when I get a message in the console, it never disappears. That's a little annoying when I'm trying to send numbers to the console.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 06:58:47 PM by Quicksand-S » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2012, 07:06:18 PM »

well crap. are characters getting written to the console after you have the key written? The key only works when it is the last value written to the console, which might be a hindrance I have to remove or adjust
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« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2012, 07:38:16 PM »

Non-programmer here, but writing to let you know that the concept is incredibly cool and I'd probably really enjoy it if I had a shred of intelligence. Getting past the first level felt intuitive, but then I found myself on wikipedia reading the Befunge instruction list and it all got a bit overwhelming. I'll give it another go when I'm not so tired, maybe I'll be able to get further.
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« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2012, 07:48:37 PM »

well crap. are characters getting written to the console after you have the key written? The key only works when it is the last value written to the console, which might be a hindrance I have to remove or adjust

The last value? Interesting...I thought it had to be the ONLY value written to the console. Maybe your string-checking is skipping the first character or something. That'd explain why it worked for you and not for me.

Edit: Nevermind. Still no luck. I tried tacking the numbers onto the end, or using page-up to get to another line that had only those numbers. Still nothing.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding how things work. Am I supposed to unlock the exit by touching those epsilon characters? That's what I've been trying, and it always tells me that it's locked.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 07:54:42 PM by Quicksand-S » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2012, 08:16:46 PM »

that is really weird, from what you are saying it sounds like it should be opening for you. I'll put some more info below in spoiler tags:

so the key is the number 65536, when I clear this level I use a loop or a series of math operations to get that number on the stack, then a period to push it onto the console. Are you using math operations to get to the number?

Thanks for trying repeatedly, it sounds really frustrating  Facepalm
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« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2012, 08:21:42 PM »

Getting past the first level felt intuitive, but then I found myself on wikipedia reading the Befunge instruction list and it all got a bit overwhelming.

Thanks for trying it, and also please note that I'm not expecting the game to only be playable by someone who already knows what befunge is. Ideally someone with no prior knowledge would pickup enough to get by just from playing the game. So don't feel overwhelmed because you don't know the whole entire instruction set!
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« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2012, 08:25:58 PM »

that is really weird, from what you are saying it sounds like it should be opening for you. I'll put some more info below in spoiler tags:

so the key is the number 65536, when I clear this level I use a loop or a series of math operations to get that number on the stack, then a period to push it onto the console. Are you using math operations to get to the number?

Thanks for trying repeatedly, it sounds really frustrating  Facepalm

Well, I noticed a difference between how you and I do things.

Math operations? Nope. All I do is send the cursor across the existing number from the right. It gets added to the stack in reverse, and then I print it out into the console right after that. The LIFO setup means it comes out in the correct order, and everything looks right. Could the problem be that I'm using "65536" as a string (or a series of individual digits...), and you're making it one five-digit integer?
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« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2012, 09:32:06 PM »

yep, that's the problem then. The period prints a number value AND a space, and that's direct from the funge specification so I can't change it. What I can do is maybe add that to the notes, even something as simple as "no spaces". I definitely don't want to discourage different ways of beating a level, most of them can be beaten several different ways, but this type of lock looks for "...the last value on the console...", and all the space separated numbers would be read as separate 'values'

sorry for the run around, and thanks for sticking through it so I wasn't left with a complete head scratcher. I'll rethink the wording
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« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2012, 12:03:44 AM »

yep, that's the problem then. The period prints a number value AND a space, and that's direct from the funge specification so I can't change it. What I can do is maybe add that to the notes, even something as simple as "no spaces".

Ah. That makes sense. Glad we got that figured out. I guess I never realized that those were spaces, because all my output had them. It just seemed like it was the printing method for output.

Unrelated question: Is there a point to the tiny collectables in Level 3? Do you plan on expanding the item-collection aspect of the game? Personally, I think it works great as a puzzle game without that additional stuff. Same goes for the "enemy" I encountered in another level.


Edit: Wow. I know I'm writing a lot, but I found an issue. Using the knowledge of how to do Level 5 properly, I just beat it. Then Level 6 ended within about a second and I got sent back to Level 5 to do it all over again...

At least this is the sort of game where knowing how to beat a level lets you do it very quickly the second time around.

Yeah, I can't play it anymore. I get to Level 6 and have no time to even find my "character" before I'm thrown back to Level 5.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2012, 12:23:23 AM by Quicksand-S » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2012, 12:46:04 AM »

there are quite a few collectibles and they get used for things, but saying too much about it would be a spoiler. It comes about fairly naturally though. For the level 5 / 6 thing, the best I can hope to do is fix note 2 so players know that the once unlocked they can always press pageup a few times and be able unlock level 5 again automatically, otherwise the level 6 thing would be crazy. But I can't lie to you, level 6 is tough, and the game gets more challenging than that as it progresses.


I think the biggest thing I am taking away from this is I need to modify the description of the game so it's not being presented as just an exploration of befunge and a casual puzzle experience, there is a hardcore challenge and 'things will kill the shit out of you' aspect that I am under representing in the first post
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« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2012, 01:28:05 AM »

there is a hardcore challenge and 'things will kill the shit out of you' aspect

Good to know.

I actually don't mind a challenge. I just tend to prefer challenges that give me a chance to...see that there's a challenge before sending me back to the previous level. Using page-up should make it easier to get back, but why is it like that in the first place when none of the earlier levels are? A fun game can easily be made frustrating if you have to replay the easy parts over and over. It would suck if people rage-quit because of the checkpoint system rather than the actual gameplay.

That said, I plan on playing this game more. It really is good and interesting, and I want to see what the later levels are like.


Yet another Edit: I think I see why Level 6 works that way. Still annoying/frustrating, but at least there's a reason for it.

As I play around with thinking outside the box a bit more, I'm finding this pretty exciting. There are a lot of things I didn't notice before. Secret areas, different exits, strange ways of getting places. I like it. I still hate Level 6, though. Tongue

Found a warp zone. Nice. I love that I don't have to do Level 6 yet and can still have fun exploring other places, trying to collect the keys.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2012, 02:05:09 AM by Quicksand-S » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2012, 02:02:33 AM »

I thought you'd laugh when you saw the level 6 theme Smiley


anyway, the next logical leap that would let you actually clear level 6 is kind of a doozy, I won't say anymore though

although, I just realized something else might be necessary, I just made a small adjustment to level 5. if you get totally stuck, but you still want to see it through it my help to load the page in another tab or window and playthrough to level 5 again because I realized there was something I was hinting but there was a way to avoid the hint, oops. it's pretty crucial
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« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2012, 02:07:51 AM »

anyway, the next logical leap that would let you actually clear level 6 is kind of a doozy, I won't say anymore though

Yeah, I think I have an idea. This is really amazing. Great work. I didn't realize how complex this game was, and how much room for exploration there was.

It really looks like it's just a straightforward puzzle game, but it isn't. Seems you need to figure out a way to let people know what it's really like...without actually telling them what it's really like...

By the way, I opened the trademark/copyright/registered door and I'm checking out Level 4' now.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2012, 02:40:33 AM by Quicksand-S » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2012, 02:43:43 AM »

good luck Sad

I actually feel bad now because of how hard it gets down that path... but I'm glad you stuck through the first part and got to see some of the good stuff! Also, I've tweaked my initial post a little more to give people a bit more of a heads up.
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« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2012, 06:23:37 AM »

I was really enjoying this, but a couple things:

1) Support for my keyboard was flaky, on the UK layout the # and the ^ are in different places.

2) The level after unlocking using 65536 kicks me out after a fraction of a second, to the extent that I don't even have enough time to see what's going on or how to stop it, leaves me disinclined to even try to solve it.

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« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2012, 08:19:47 AM »

Thanks, that's the second complaint re: level 6 I've received - it is the first time an entity is really aggressive towards you, but I want it to be slightly clearer what has happened because so far when a player does eventually realize what's happening there they tend to go with it. I will experiment with making the level more readable, or introducing a slight delay.

I was expecting some issues with keyboard layouts, I remember people mentioning that the `/~ key worked instead as a language entry button on some European keyboards and that that caused problems in La Mulana, but I didn't know some of the more common characters were different between US/UK. I will research that and see if I can make a workaround, thanks for pointing it out!
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« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2012, 05:30:32 PM »

[I haven't read any other replies yet. I have a basic familiarity with programming, but nothing this low-level.]

After skimming through your post I clicked on your link I immediately got the "does not have focus" message, which was briefly confusing. After clicking through I got stuck in an "END OF PROGRAM" loop, with the first level flickering on screen for an instant every time I restarted. I was stuck like this for maybe 20 seconds. I kept hitting "R" trying to read the text that appeared in the level, assuming it was significant. Then I tried tapping those commonly-used keys you find yourself trying when you don't know what a game's controls are. After a few more restarts I hit the down arrow and escaped the cycle. Since you said there is no generated content yet, I assume this initial loop is intentional. It did teach me how to restart, and it was kind of cool when I did escape it. But 20 seconds is a long time when it's the very first 20 seconds of gameplay. At the time I assumed it was sort sort of mistake or error, and coming right from the "does not have focus" message I didn't have much of a reason to trust the stability of the game. If you hadn't explicitly stated in your post that the game required players to "think outside of the box", I almost certainly would have quit the game before escaping the loop. I'm reminded of those mindfuck html-based games where the 2nd or 3rd level usually involves altering the URL. They aren't at all afraid to frustrate and seriously challenge the player, but they usually give some sort of "this is what you're in for" start screen. It's your prerogative, but I would suggest something like that.

Moving on, I figured out how to move and lay characters, and began changing the block's direction. After about 4 minutes I had tried a few dozen characters, had restarted half a dozen times, and was beginning to loose interest. I suspected that getting the block to hit the ¤ might start a new level, but I had also suspected something would happen when I got it to hit the ✝ and ǂ, and that didn't pan out. After a couple hours I came back to the game and used j to pass the first level and beat the second fairly quickly. The third level looked a little more interesting but I just looked at it for a while before I decided to stop. I might play more later; I'm not really in the right mood right now.
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