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[phubans]

I find it weird how different the user base of TIGS is if you go back every 2 - 3 years. Has anybody else noticed this? Level 10 regulars who once seemed like permanent fixtures at TIGS have all but disappeared. In some cases, they show up as "guest" because they deleted their profile. I find this ebb and flow to be kind of weird for such a close-knit community, don't you?

What motivates people to move on? Do they just "outgrow" the community? Do interests change? Does the climate shift with the influx of new users, making the previous users feel less relevant, causing them to drift away? How many of these people underwent major life upheavals? Is it possible that some of them perished altogether? Does anyone else wonder about this?

Here's how to get an idea of what I'm talking about: Go into any thread that was started 2 - 3 years ago and check out the active users in the first page of that thread. How many of those users still post on the forums regularly?

Also, do you see yourself leaving TIGSource someday? When? When you succeed at being an indie developer? When you're driven out by some drama/argument? Or do you think you'll simply lose interest?

[Ashkin]

I suspect that it is because, since indie gaming is shifting into the mainstream spotlight, the whole atmosphere of the indie world is changing, thus changing this forum's feeling. Hence, some people disagree with that feeling and choose to move away from it.

[Inane]

Gnarf.

I'm busy, Paul

What motivates people to move on? Do they just "outgrow" the community? Do interests change? Does the climate shift with the influx of new users, making the previous users feel less relevant, causing them to drift away? How many of these people underwent major life upheavals? Is it possible that some of them perished altogether? Does anyone else wonder about this?

One of the reasons I don't really check the the forums-- besides 'I'm busy, Paul' --is that my interests no longer match those of the community. I'm hesitant to say I outgrew the community because I never put away childish things, but every time I check the forums and someone says 'animu' or defends bronies I feel a tinge of annoyance. The only discussions I really 'get' are the drama ones that Bobo and Pen keep me up to date on, like JWK5's hissy fit

I suspect that it is because, since indie gaming is shifting into the mainstream spotlight, the whole atmosphere of the indie world is changing, thus changing this forum's feeling. Hence, some people disagree with that feeling and choose to move away from it.

Naww. I don't think it has anything to do with independent development becoming 'mainstream', since honestly I think the largest influx of that nature was probably around (or even right before) when TIGForums started. Online communities aren't static and they won't retain old members or the same atmosphere regardless.

[Cow]

I know quite a few people who don't come here because they hate what Rinkuhero does to threads.

I think most of the people leaving is because they really don't like prominent members of the community here.

[Graham.]

I find that our conversations can have low ceilings for productivity. I think relative to how effective a conversation can be we tend to only cover a fraction.

That's not because of anyone in particular. We are just poor at building up ideas. I find that conversations can become personal very quickly, and to avoid that there is a tendency to avoid honest criticism, making the results passive.

Game design/dev is hard. People come to learn, or express or whatever, then leave when they hit the ceiling, after getting what they can that isn't best got elsewhere.

Maybe that's a lack of leadership; I don't know. There is no structure to enforce productive conversation, because there's no scale to measure ourselves by. So it's my opinion against yours, and that's only productive for a while. So things take the path of least resistance.

No one is going to "run" the forums to a degree that would change any of that, because the ideal for all of us is to work, and even if it is to discuss, the best situation is to form relationships in real life and discuss there, and only come here to supplement.

The amount of labor and insight required to make a change is significant. There would have to be some kind of pay-off for doing so. The forums say at the Escapist fall off of the people and the efforts of the people that run the show, and get payed to do so. We don't have that. The possible "payment" could be having effective conversations in real life, or having networking power. Though the web alone isn't strong enough for that.

Or maybe it is. If we were lead around through some structure that produced measurable results, or there was some moderation from people who were paid to do so, say as a part of organizing "jam" events and the like, then it would be different.

I think jamming suits games better than other mediums. Maybe we need to organize ourselves around well run jams, even if they are done over the web.

I don't know, just thinking.

There needs to be some core: either an individual, or series of individuals, or some business, or volunteer organization that sees merit in well-run forums.

Right? And the people in that core need to see some benefit in doing the web, over just running a company. The web supplements real-life interactions, or broadcasting. So either people open up some "game education" facility, that is non-forum TIG, and get paid for traffic; or they create some kind of regular structured jamming, or training segments, that gather the best from all over the place and try to leverage our diversity and relative indie-ness to create an experience that is really valuable.

We are all here for the inspiration, because we're isolated in someway, because we lack resources, or real-life connections to other devs. The core would have to monetize that need. Then there would be power/motivation to kick everything else into line.

[Moczan]

Because the forum is full of jerkcircling of unsuccessful indies, so whenever somebody actually achieves something he's called fat faggot and people try to devalue his/her work as much as they can. Every game is overrated and everybody who makes living from games made it just by pure luck.

[Graham.]

Right, because once you "make it" you have other options for getting what forums normally provide. So people like that need one more reason to stay. So dominant opinion is always going to naturally tend to people who do need it.

The only way to counterbalance is with someone who has a vision, or someone with slightly less of a vision and a monetization strategy.

[Triplefox]

Message boards are poor community hubs. Because every post is premeditated, you don't have the flow of natural conversation, particularly not as traffic increases. What appears instead are the same things one commonly sees written in a real world city: graffiti, advertisement, "news" (of the shocking, outraged sort), and the occasional formal, informative posting - "help wanted", "no parking", etc. So where are the people?

Well, people aren't really on a message board, their "shadows" are. Discussion takes place a step removed from the personalities, in some sort of essay-meets-txting mixture. The people who are really active and thrive in this environment also tend to be people with a manipulative interest of some kind, writing short spurts of propaganda for some idea or other, or just to inflate themselves. The board is their playing field, and YOU are a pawn. Sometimes manipulation is favorable(in the goal of curating a certain kind of discussion) but more often it's purely done for trolling or powermongering. Discussions become shrill and escalate easily into flamewars without intervention.

On the other hand, as you get closer to live conversation, the connections become both more influential and also more balanced, since they increasingly reflect the whole person, not a shadow. Self-moderation takes place; you don't see escalation nearly as frequently. This is why I have turned to a combination of IRC and Twitter, since they appear to be the platforms closest to the particular goal of "conversation with strangers." Dozens of simultaneous IRC channels. Hundreds of Twitter accounts. (aside - the #1 complaint of people who don't get IRC - nasty people and nasty discussions. They happen, but you don't have to be involved, especially when you have 20 channels up and the others have nicer things going on. It's exactly the same reason why Twitter lets you choose who you are following)

Between the two platforms, just in the past year - Met people I never would have known. Went to events I wouldn't have heard of otherwise. Initiated business deals. Became acquainted with new ideologies. The list goes on...

On the other hand, the number of people that have become new friends as a result of message board posting or email approaches zero. If people on these mediums become lasting friends, it's basically because I also met them in another "conversational space" (RL, IRC, Twitter) at some point. A similar mismatch results when I look at what I get economically, intellectually, etc. I do business over email, of course, but that's a "because everyone does it" kind of thing, not because it's very effective. Things like IM and Facebook sit on the borderline - they exist primarily for old friends, not new ones.

So where does TIGSource exist in this? Because its moderation does not wield strong control over the kinds of discussion that may take place, a small number of people continually step in to impose their own stupid messages. The turnover is high because people don't come here looking for "celebrity posts," and they don't like the impression that the board is a slum dominated by such. When people succeed in finding other venues that don't have these qualities, they depart. This board has given me a few notifications about upcoming gatherings, and a smattering of useful technical discussions, but really not a great deal otherwise. I can think of numerous ways in which it has provoked me, on the other hand.

[JobLeonard]

I've been lurking for a few years before joining. Basically, Triplefox hits the nail on the head as to why I ignore the general section.

I feel burned out with discussion forums anyway - it's usually a shouting match. I mostly just stick to the devlogs, because the discussion there has more focus (the game being developed, a gameplay mechanism being discussed) and therefore less noise. Those subjects also are inherently better fit to the reflective type of discussions that message boards encourage.

[Graham.]

@Triplefox

That's an interesting description. Our "shadows" are discussing. I'll disagree on one point. I normally come here not for advice, or a connection, as you say we normally don't, and not really for manipulation. Maybe sometimes I do, in subconscious ways, but normally the impact I can have on someone else here is so limited compared to reality that even if I wanted to manipulate someone I'd be better off doing it elsewhere. It's more exciting in reality anyway. People do that here but whatever.

The point is... the greatest value comes in the "broadcast." I read something, then I try to write about whatever thoughts that are stimulated in me as a result, that probably cycle some idea that I've been thinking about lately. Just having the idea of an "audience," whether it exists or not, allows me to write in a way that I would not normally write in when on my own. The writing is generally less free - I am more constrained - but it helps me get a more general perspective on my own ideas by contrasting them with those of others.

But since we're all doing the same thing it's difficult to build that tower anywhere. It's just one broadcast after another.

This is why to grow, TIG would require some sort of real-world counter-part, to sit at the center.  ... I find the idea of creating a healthy web community interesting.

[Paul Eres]

my first thought is that you should be asking the people who left, not the people who stayed here. they'd be the ones more likely to know after all

i think reasons would vary by the individual, but i've *never* once seen a forum where the member base is consistent over a large number of years. people always come and go, and sometimes go and return. it's a natural thing and no more common on the tigsource forums than on any other forums

i do maintain contact with a lot of people who have left the forum, and generally the reasons they've given me for not posting here any more are that they're too busy to post on forums nowadays. during the time when i left the forums and returned it was also because i was a bit more busy than usual. "busy" is sort of a generic excuse, and a lot of people who post regularly on this forum are still very productive, but it is true that forums can be a source of distraction for many people

Here's how to get an idea of what I'm talking about: Go into any thread that was started 2 - 3 years ago and check out the active users in the first page of that thread. How many of those users still post on the forums regularly?

basically that is true for 100% of every forum on the internet older than 2-3 years. trying to find "reasons" for this feel like rationalization and over-analysis of something that really isn't that complicated or uncommon, something that's unavoidable

even in real life communities, in any place of gathering (people who meet for a hobby, informal meetings, people who hang out together, church / religious meetings, or whatever) people leave and join and change over time; none of them stay consistent because social networks / connections are fluid. the same thing happens to irc chatrooms

also, "ironically", another reason people sometimes give for leaving the forum is that everyone is different and they don't recognize most of the people anymore. so the very fact that the member base shifts can be a reason for the member base to further shift

[Graham.]

That's the forum world, apparently.

[thatshelby]

I've kicked around the idea of leaving for a while, because its not good for my productivity. I have been trying to post less, though. At least fewer in general/games.

[Udderdude]

I've kicked around the idea of leaving for a while, because its not good for my productivity. I have been trying to post less, though. At least fewer in general/games.

Better to just stick to Feedback/DevLogs, where you at least can feel like you're helping someone out by testing their game/providing feedback.

[impulse9]

They get unplugged from the matrix.