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[Muz]

neither a cs degree or a game dev degree will make you a better game developer or a better programmer

Whoa, that's a bit extreme now. I mean, I agree that CS degrees are BS, but they do teach you skills. If you haven't improved at all, then you've been ripped off.

And while most programming degrees don't really get as far as teaching OOP (properly), they do teach you things like how to set up your compiler or force you to learn how pointers work.

I'm a significantly better programmer because of formal education; it taught me how to break down difficult tasks, how to abstract out things, how to design a system to be easily debugged, how to isolate and test systems, proper project management, handling those horrible pointers, version control, work flow, optimization (and what isn't worth sacrificing for 'optimization'), multithreading, etc. And that was only a small part of a comp sci course. I would never have learned those things outside of uni.

Game design courses are useful too, if done right. For the most part, they're taught by people who don't actually design games, but those who want to analyze games. Without the proper tools. A good design course teaches you game theory, how people's pleasure part of the brain works, mechanisms for balance.


Of course, I do agree that there are better ways for breaking into the games industry. Electrical engineering is probably as good as a CS degree.. you do actual serious shit programming like image processing, robotics, AI, operating systems, security (and how people break them). I've seen people in EE outdo CS programmers.

Mathematics degrees are awesome. Toady One of Dwarf Fortress did math and it shows in how he designs the mechanics of DF. Math is a lot like philosophy, except that you break reality down into things that can be explained in formulas. Perfect for games. (well, a true mathematician would disagree in that there's just so much more depth to it than that, but if that's all you take out of it, you'll learn more than you need to know)

Other engineering degrees are good too. If you listen to Will Wright's lectures, he approaches everything from an engineering perspective, breaking everything down into mechanics. Chris Crawford did physics.

IMO, business degrees are even more overrated than CS degrees. My father did a MBA and degree in economics, wasn't worth it. You can pick up everything in business faster than you pick up C++.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை]

well i guess i was assuming that he already knew how to program. i agree that if you don't know basic programming things a cs degree will teach you some of those basics. but you could also pick up those basics from self-training and a $30 book, or even free tutorials online, you don't need to spend $100,000 on a college education and go into heavy debt for perhaps the rest of your life to learn how to program

[rivon]

University education costs 100k USD and it sucks compared to the euro universities? LOL :D

[AlexHW]

I personally prefer not to make any decision if I can't decide between one choice or another. Indecisiveness usually is a clue that I haven't sorted out my own direction yet to know which choice would benefit me in the way I desire it to. I hate how most people pressure others into picking a line of work, or whatever. It's not right to shepherd others for the sake of it because where you lead them may end up hurting them. Higher education is abused by everyone that wants to throw money at stuff to solve their own personal issues. If you know for certain that you want the stuff that a college provides then it makes sense to invest in it, but most just do it because everyone tells them they should. Where will this lead?!?!

[ஒழுக்கின்மை]

University education costs 100k USD and it sucks compared to the euro universities? LOL :D

it depends on the university, but generally it costs between 10,000 and 30,000 a year in the US. even more for ivy league schools like princeton and harvard. if you go to community college it's cheaper though. i went to rutgers, where it cost me 22k per year (that included dorm and food plan), *back in the 90s*. i can't imagine how much more expensive it is now

[zalzane]

University education costs 100k USD and it sucks compared to the euro universities? LOL :D

I dont see where he mentioned american university.

From what I gather, european computer science education is just as bad as american.

[sigfarter]

You don't even need to buy ebooks or other shit like that, you can just pirate huge packs of game development ebooks. And since studios will give preference to self-taught programmers, the best education is essentially free.

Basically what we are arguing over is money versus effort. You could spill out a hundred grand on loans to get a piece of paper that says you have certification, or you could spill your guts out, teach yourself how to do things, and have your own examples and portfolio to show for it. That will almost guarantee you a programming job, especially if you have released a game to the public.

Money can't buy everything.

[rivon]

zalzane: I don't think so... I'm currently studying the Czech Technical University, Faculty of Information Technology and it's great. We're learning some very useful stuff from all the aspects of computer technology and then some specialized stuff depending on what you choose as your specialization. I only pay the dorm, living costs and transport (much lower than in US, though the average income is also lower) + we get accommodation scholarship (depending on the distance from your home) + bonus money if you have good grades. But from the next year on we will probably have to pay tuition fees but this is still changing. It's one of the hot politics topics.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை]

zalzane: I don't think so... I'm currently studying the Czech Technical University, Faculty of Information Technology and it's great. We're learning some very useful stuff from all the aspects of computer technology and then some specialized stuff depending on what you choose as your specialization. I only pay the dorm, living costs and transport (much lower than in US, though the average income is also lower) + we get accommodation scholarship (depending on the distance from your home) + bonus money if you have good grades. But from the next year on we will probably have to pay tuition fees but this is still changing. It's one of the hot politics topics.

i'm not saying whether this is true or not, but you realize that you can't actually know whether your education was good or not until you have to use it, right? while you're learning something everything seems useful. but in 10 years, when you actually are working and thinking about what you learned in college and whether it was useful or not, *then* you'll be in a position to know whether your education was good or not. you can't know that now, because every student believes their education is great because that's what their teachers tell them

[ham and brie]

i'm not saying whether this is true or not, but you realize that you can't actually know whether your education was good or not until you have to use it, right? while you're learning something everything seems useful. but in 10 years, when you actually are working and thinking about what you learned in college and whether it was useful or not, *then* you'll be in a position to know whether your education was good or not. you can't know that now, because every student believes their education is great because that's what their teachers tell them

Other than in some impractical epistemological sense, I think you're wrong about that.

It's been about 8 years since I graduated from my CS degree (Warwick University). I already knew how to program, from teaching myself. A lot of what I learnt on my course has definitely been useful to me (working as a game developer) and I could tell at the time that it would be useful and gave a better foundation for understanding computation/computers and how they could be used.

[Lon]

Pursuing a college degree will likely prove beneficial in understanding some theoretical concepts. The more one puts into it, the more one will get out of it. Hopefully one puts in enough to graduate and feel like one has earned much more than just a piece of paper officiating one's satisfactory completion of the required units to earn some degree.

When attending college work with students who look to improve themselves. Work with instructors who want to help you succeed. Not often will you find experienced professionals whose primary interest is seeing you be successful in your pursuits and who are paid to be available to you. So really try to take advantage of the resources that the university provides, including their networked computer labs, ACM Digital Library and human resources.

Universities provide opportunities for one to work with researchers, classmates and to receive an education that may be difficult or impossible to attain otherwise. Some people may feel that the University was a waste of their time, and indeed if they don't leverage their opportunities and commit themselves to development it can be a poor use of time and money.

In attending an university one will undoubtedly encounter students who are there just for the piece of paper, because they don't know what else to do, or less motivated students. Keep an eye out for students who are going some where, work on projects both in and out of class with them. Work on developing your resume. Some of my fellow classmates worked together for a total of some 400 hours on an Android App, they made some 20,000+ sales at $2-4 a piece. Not bad for a couple of students first attempt to get something on their resume. They later presented on their project, sharing with us their challenges and successes, providing other students and instructors an opportunity to ask them questions.

Universities also provide great opportunities for interdisciplinary research. Social networking with others is incredibly valuable, who you know is invaluable for being hired.

If you want to develop video games I highly suggest doing just that. Make them. Start now. Do it often. Always look to improve and learn more about developing video games.

If you attend a university, take what you learn and apply it to your own projects. Definitely practice, practice, practice.

One's ability to program takes time to develop. One can't realistically expect to have piano lessons once a week and become a decent pianist. One needs to practice; The more, the better. Same with programming; a couple courses won't make one a proficient programmer. Some university professors echo this in recommending students spend many hours a week programming outside of class assignments. Practice what you learn in class, experiment. Wrestle with the ideas; immediately implement concepts you learned in class in out-of-class projects. Make use of what you learn. Make class material useful when you learn it, don't wait around and hope it proves useful someday in the future.

Classes and degree's don't auto-magically make one great at some skill; it takes a lot of self-discipline, sacrifice and practice to develop valuable skills.

I'm not too sure what the Game Development major involves; though I'd imagine it would have some overlap with the pursuit of a Computer Science degree. When I look through job postings, either for game development jobs or other tech related jobs, a degree in computer science seems to be most in demand. A Game Development degree may be acceptable for some positions instead of a degree in Computer Science. A degree may help make one more eligible for a job position, but it is one's resume, past related work experience, who one knows, related skills, ability to work well with others and knowledge relevant to the job position that will likely win one favorable job positions.

As other seem to have already said: developing valuable skills takes a lot of work and paying for a degree isn't going to change that. As some of my professors say: college isn't for everybody. A degree in Computer Science may help make more of the job market available to you, both for game development or other tech related jobs, than a degree in Game Development would. However I'd imagine a pursuing a degree in Game Development will provide you with many like minded students, classes would be designed towards helping you towards your particular interest, and Game Development instructors would be particularly valuable to you.

With either degree I think you could be successful in game development, provided you work hard, work smart and always be improving. Seems that a degree in Computer Science is sort of the standard for many tech related jobs, other than for Hardware side related jobs requiring degree's in Electrical Engineering. I don't know how profitable a degree in Game Development is in the job market at this time. Pursuing a degree in Game Development will likely provide you many valuable resources, classes, and people that you could greatly benefit you and your pursuit of game development.

PS. I don't feel like I practice much or work a lot with others. I could have made a lot better use of my time and money. My responsibility, and really my duty, is to do my best.

Best of luck to you and your endeavors.

[rivon]

i'm not saying whether this is true or not, but you realize that you can't actually know whether your education was good or not until you have to use it, right? while you're learning something everything seems useful. but in 10 years, when you actually are working and thinking about what you learned in college and whether it was useful or not, *then* you'll be in a position to know whether your education was good or not. you can't know that now, because every student believes their education is great because that's what their teachers tell them

I don't agree. Ofc most people will end up like some business system programmers and most of the stuff they learned will be useless but that's not the point.

If I wanted to program some embedded device, I would not have any problem with that. I could even design the CPU now. After this semester I would probably even be able to program a compiler or design my own programming language and implement it.

In the first year, I really learned how to use debugger properly and find leaks using valgrind, and not by someone telling me how to do it but by myself because if I didn't, I wouldn't pass the programming lessons. We will also have a few lessons about proper object modelling, software engineering, database management etc. And there will also be some team software projects going on the next semester and the one after it which is going to be an invaluable lesson. And I'm not even talking about all the maths and data structures and algos we will learn (or have learnt).


Edit: and I forgot to say that I'm only talking about the bachelor's degree here which is nothing. In the master's degree there are of course lots of other useful things.

[Superb Joe]

if you study video game i will brutalise you with a long sword and yodel until my heart stops

[InfiniteStateMachine]

  remarkably lucid

[Morroque]

Electrical engineering is probably as good as a CS degree.. you do actual serious shit programming like image processing, robotics, AI, operating systems, security (and how people break them). I've seen people in EE outdo CS programmers.

I'm getting that feeling too. I'm left wondering exactly what might be so different about electrical engineers over computer scientists, since my particular school doesn't really have much distinction between the two of 'em - at least on an "everything before senior year" level, where things finally get a bit different with courses centered around technology rather than mere theory. Everything before than point is more or less the same, as both departments offer courses on digital circuit design and such.

I've heard it said that the engineers are actually barred from taking a lot of computer science courses because they are considered the "easier" derivatives of the same courses they have to take. While I'm all for good discipline at one's craft, usually if a class can convey the same concepts in a less stressful way, that would strike me as the better deal on a time-management level. (Then again, this is coming from someone with a lot of nonschool projects to dedicate to.)

At the same time, maybe this is a choice upon the discipline of computer science itself? Before I migrated over to computer science, I was in a media production and film program. The media production students strike me as having a work ethic that would be much more suited to making games, especially on an art asset and organization level. They lack the programming technique, but they had the drive. Meanwhile, the computer science groups I've been a part of certainly had the programming technique, but projects rarely ever made it off the ground. Perhaps the electrical engineers have that edge over computer scientists where they are actually encouraged to go out and build stuff, rather than just doing some math and a few little example programs?

[Superb Joe]

i will have you removed from 24 hour fitness, by force if necessary, if you choose to study video game. further, if you attend full sail i will menace your family pets with mean stares and menacing bicep curls.

[HöllenKobold]

i live 15 minutes from full sail

[moi]

learn programming microchips and electrotechnics, from there you can do a lot of cool jobs including Nasa or evil mastermind.
And you will know programming from the insides out

[AlexHW]

You can also become a brain surgeon and an astronaut too!
Want to build a time-machine? No problem!

[ElVaquero]

Lon's post brings up some incredibly good points that have been glossed over a bit (thank you Lon!!). Yes, the university is mostly about getting a piece of paper. Yes, the classes themselves might sometimes be a waste of time. But the opportunity to network, meet potential future partners, and get specialized help from experienced teachers is maybe more than half the value of the education overall.

My bachelor's is in International Relations so erm.. may give me a different perspective and focus, but not so practical with the actual developing. I've been doing self-taught quite a lot but it's hard keeping that up with a full-time job (another secret bonus of school: TIME). Now I'm considering doing another bachelors in CS for all of the reasons listed above-- time + focus, expert help + advice, meeting other passionate learners. Getting out into the real world a little bit probably helps you be a better student, I've got a lot more humility and patience now than when I was 18 (and a LOT more fear of winding up with a job I don't love). Also I'm not even thinking of a Game Design/Dev major because yeah, there just aren't enough good professors... maybe a few good programs but they're expensive, hard to get into, and still not a guaranteed fit.

Practically speaking- has anyone heard anything about UBC's Computer Science program?
They have a 20-month "second degree" track which can be had for about $50k... looks quite interesting and Vancouver is a decent "indie" city from what I understand