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1055083 Posts in 42843 Topics- by 34754 Members - Latest Member: whereisgj

October 19, 2014, 08:21:59 PM
TIGSource ForumsPlayerGeneralIs this you?
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zalzane
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« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2012, 11:57:45 AM »

Emergency help is always needed somewhere.

Emergency help is completely different from the "pay 5 dollars every month to adopt some kid" charity groups that there are out there. I'm completely okay with emergency aid, it's a very different kind of aid than the kind that inhibits the production of capital goods.

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Don't make excuses to not help people
Considering I laid out a solution to the problem that still helps people, this point is invalid.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை
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« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2012, 12:01:28 PM »

Emergency help is always needed somewhere.

Emergency help is completely different from the "pay 5 dollars every month to adopt some kid" charity groups that there are out there. I'm completely okay with emergency aid, it's a very different kind of aid than the kind that inhibits the production of capital goods.

Quote
Don't make excuses to not help people
Considering I laid out a solution to the problem that still helps people, this point is invalid.

there are different kinds of charities. one of the ones i like is where you pay to build a well in an area that doesn't have access to clean drinking water. the well could last decades or more. i agree that those 'adopt a kid' things aren't that great of a use of a money, but that's not the only option, there are a bunch of different kinds

generally improving infrastructure has a lasting long-term benefit, whereas just paying for food never ends since they'll still be hungry next year
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zalzane
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« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2012, 12:07:06 PM »

generally improving infrastructure has a lasting long-term benefit, whereas just paying for food never ends since they'll still be hungry next year

Yes, definitely! Infrastructure can be considered a capital good that services the community, so it would be completely fine to donate that kind of thing.

I just rant about donating in general because you usually get donation agencies trying to legitimize themselves by publishing pie charts of where all the money goes, and it's usually all stuff like food, clothes, medicine, bed sheets, that kind of thing, where in all honesty donating that kind of stuff doesn't help people at all in the long run.
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Danmark
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« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2012, 12:07:41 PM »

That's incredibly simplified though. Emergency help is always needed somewhere. And "Throwing money" at school building and well drilling projects does long term good.
Foreign corporations basically stealing the local resources and destroying local markets is the real issue that needs to be solved. Along with achieving political stability which the former does nothing to help with.

Wherever something is provided for free that would otherwise be bought locally, local markets are destroyed. Nobody can compete with free.

Interference of foreign corporations certainly isn't desirable, but it's along the same lines as the kind of foreign 'charity' and 'aid' zalzane is talking about. Just another tendril of globalization. How do you intend to impose political stability on a foreign people?
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Schoq
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« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2012, 12:18:17 PM »

I wasn't arguing for giving people food for free, but against the notion that permanently giving anything to third world countries is harmful.



Turns out nobody's disagreeing with anyone, we're just bad at being clear.
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make games, not money
impulse9
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« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2012, 12:21:49 PM »

From this point on I can foresee a very long and tiresome thread.

Wizard
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ஒழுக்கின்மை
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« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2012, 12:30:59 PM »

Wherever something is provided for free that would otherwise be bought locally, local markets are destroyed. Nobody can compete with free.

i'm not sure this is always the case, particularly if it's given only to those who can't otherwise afford it.

as an example, in the US, food stamps did not "destroy" the market for food. neither did medicare and medicaid destroy the market for health insurance. people still buy food and health insurance despite food and health insurance being given away for free to the poorest people.

not saying that food stamps and medicare/medicaid are good things, of course, or that they had zero impact on the market. just that they didn't "destroy" those markets.
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Muz
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« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2012, 01:03:00 PM »

Actually, now that I look at it, this does symbolize a stereotypical iOS developer more than anything.

Also you guys seem pretty passionate about politics and poverty from here Gomez
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Schoq
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« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2012, 01:16:30 PM »

None of us talking about it make mobile games afaik
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saibot216
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« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2012, 01:17:37 PM »

LOL, sounds somewhat like me, though I don't develop for mobile platforms... yet...  Who, Me?
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Danmark
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« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2012, 01:38:48 PM »

Wherever something is provided for free that would otherwise be bought locally, local markets are destroyed. Nobody can compete with free.

as an example, in the US, food stamps did not "destroy" the market for food...


Neither do foreign corporations literally destroy local markets. I just copied Schoq's rhetorical device.

The point is remote economies of scale often flatten smaller local economies in competition, with devastating consequences for the agency and dignity of locals. There are certainly ways remote intervention can help people without such intolerable fallout, but it does imply you have to be very careful with the kind of charity you support (and that gov't food aid is kaput).


Turns out nobody's disagreeing with anyone, we're just bad at being clear.

True. Looks like this could go on for a while though...
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ElVaquero
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« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2012, 01:45:15 PM »

As a former political studies major....

 Beg please lock this thread Beg
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VDZ
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My post is there read that instead ->

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« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2012, 08:10:31 PM »

As a former political studies major....

 Beg please lock this thread Beg
People are having a pleasant discussion here. The thread can be locked once the thread has devolved into a flame war.
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rob
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« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2012, 09:38:37 PM »

As a former political studies major....

 Beg please lock this thread Beg

as a former political studies major

please contribute to a political discussion if you disagree with anything





also, i be mad donatin' cuz i dont fuck wit dem perfect solution fallacies
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Danmark
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« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2012, 06:03:50 AM »

also, i be mad donatin' cuz i dont fuck wit dem perfect solution fallacies

Has nought to do with perfection. Much charity is a net detriment. Paying to harm people is crazy.


As a former political studies major....

 Beg please lock this thread Beg

As a sophomoric dropout, it should be your duty to inform us know where we're wrong.
please rate this burn. your feedback is valuable!
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VDZ
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My post is there read that instead ->

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« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2012, 02:27:22 PM »

As a former political studies major....

 Beg please lock this thread Beg

As a sophomoric dropout, it should be your duty to inform us know where we're wrong.
please rate this burn. your feedback is valuable!
I'm not even sure what you're trying to say, let alone how it would refute his argument in a spectacular way. 2/10
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ElVaquero
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« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2012, 03:55:30 PM »

Welp! The scenario zalzane described doesn't actually occur very much and that was my problem.
Bill Gates, USAID, or nearly any non-profit would refuse to just give money or free things to people anymore. It's all money for projects or loans (microfinance, like giving a farmer money for tools, has become incredibly widespread over the last 20 years).

Problems with a Cold War term like "third world" aside, corruption and graft are not a reason to not donate money to aid organizations in an emergency or on an ongoing basis. It's just a reason to target your money better and I'm glad that was said by a few posters.

Ending poverty has a lot more to it than just developing nations, because, erm... there's a fuckload of poor people in developed nations too. It's just that we have more substantial safety nets (food stamps, community action agencies, unemployment insurance, etc.) than other, less well-to-do nations.

The point of my complaint was that the OP's survey didn't say location, class, or race--actually let's just leave race out of it-- but I'm guessing those would be similarly homogeneous. These are significant factors when you open your mouth in a public forum, even if they weren't included.

Sorry this was just my careerish before gamedev!

please rate this burn. your feedback is valuable!
Woulda been a wicked sick burn except I did get my degree and all I have to show for it is a fat paper about Chinese aid in Africa :/

I thought mobile developers were just developers that moved around a lot.
This is the best part of the thread so far.  Hand Clap
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Danmark
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« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2012, 07:08:05 PM »

Welp! The scenario zalzane described doesn't actually occur very much and that was my problem.
Bill Gates, USAID, or nearly any non-profit would refuse to just give money or free things to people anymore. It's all money for projects or loans (microfinance, like giving a farmer money for tools, has become incredibly widespread over the last 20 years).

Problems with a Cold War term like "third world" aside, corruption and graft are not a reason to not donate money to aid organizations in an emergency or on an ongoing basis. It's just a reason to target your money better and I'm glad that was said by a few posters.


Ah, that's good to hear. I thought microfinance became widespread much more recently than that.

It's just hard to believe things are hunky-dory when you see tons of ads for bullshit like Christian Children's Fund on the boob tube (nothing against Christian generosity, it's a bad charity, at least as they present it in the ads), and read of shenanigans like this all the time. A few years ago my local newspaper had a scathing investigative piece on charities based nearby whose bigwigs were paying themselves handsomely.

Charities are immediately dubious because they claim to help people. Yet at worst, you entrust money to a middleman who pockets it or wastes it, with neither provider nor middleman considering the supposed recipient of the charity. You can contrast this with for-profit corporations, which legitimately claim to provide good products and services in exchange for money, despite their methods being unethical (or amoral) most of the time. You can trust a corporation to do whatever it takes to make a buck. With charities it's up in the air. There's nothing systematically optimizing charities to do what they're meant to. Some do, some don't. Nothing forces under ones that don't.

How do you make average Joes and Janes cautious about what they give to without putting them off donating altogether? You gotta have some kind of contingency as our society slides from high- to low-trust.


Ending poverty has a lot more to it than just developing nations, because, erm... there's a fuckload of poor people in developed nations too. It's just that we have more substantial safety nets (food stamps, community action agencies, unemployment insurance, etc.) than other, less well-to-do nations.

True. However, most safety nets in developed countries reduce people to strictly economic terms, so lie somewhere between inadequate and nefarious.


please rate this burn. your feedback is valuable!
Woulda been a wicked sick burn except I did get my degree and all I have to show for it is a fat paper about Chinese aid in Africa :/

LOL I regret going to uni. Might as well give my degree to high schoolers as top-tier roach paper.

Hope you at least don't shoulder massive debt.
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