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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGeneralKickstarter supporters are suckers.
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PompiPompi
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« on: November 16, 2012, 10:28:29 AM »

What do people get in return for supporting a Kickstarter project?
Perks? Helping other people out? Making a game\project happen?

Take a look at this website http://www.appbackr.com/
In this website you invest money instead of throw money for perks. You get a real return proportional to your investment.

In Kickstarter the value of what you get back is a fraction of the money you donate.

In addition of getting tons of money from supporters, sometimes making other people do the work for them with the donation money, the project creators on kickstarter keep all the profit from their project and don't share it with the donators.

Wouldn't it make sense for project supporters to demand a proper return for their money? Do people enjoy throw money at people who wouldn't give them a dime in return?

I don't get it, I guess the masses are just suckers. Or the people donating in Kickstarter don't understand that money doesn't grow on trees.
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Capntastic
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« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2012, 10:44:41 AM »

Ah yes, anyone who supports a project without demanding at least a 110% return on investment is a sucker.
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ThemsAllTook
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« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2012, 10:58:53 AM »

What do people get in return for supporting a Kickstarter project?
Perks? Helping other people out? Making a game\project happen?

Yes. Isn't that the whole point?

Wouldn't it make sense for project supporters to demand a proper return for their money? Do people enjoy throw money at people who wouldn't give them a dime in return?

I don't get it, I guess the masses are just suckers. Or the people donating in Kickstarter don't understand that money doesn't grow on trees.

Some of us manage our money in such a way that we don't have to keep a death grip on every penny, and have enough extra to throw toward projects we want to see reach completion. It'd be pretty hard not to understand money doesn't grow on trees, since it's our own hard-earned funds we're donating. The only situation where "sucker" would seem appropriate is if the person asking for donations has no intention of completing the project they're supposedly funding, and just pockets the donations. Do you have examples of this happening, or is this all hyperbole?
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zalzane
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« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2012, 11:10:43 AM »


oh god this is even better than kickstarter.

Now you can get even more people to throw money at you, under the impression that they will make a profit when your game fails on the app store. I just spent about 20 minutes on the site looking for anything along the lines of a guarantee or legal document preventing developers from running away with the money, and I found ziltch.

On top of that, their idea of a developer screening process is just that you have an apple developer licence. Sure isnt much of a bother to blow 99 dollars on one of those when you're about to make 20 grand of unmarked bills.
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PompiPompi
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« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2012, 11:20:28 AM »

You can drop the project after getting funded, just like in Kickstarter. But I think it tracks your profits in the Apple store, so you can't just fool everyone.

Capntastic, well he is a sucker.
Considering you are going to fund a pay check for people to work on their dream project and keep all the profits to themsleves, you ARE a sucker.
Being a sucker can be ok with people, but you are one.

You are not giving money to charity, you are giving money to a business. It's like you would give money to fund a project by Microsoft. Good lord, eventually we might see crowd fundings for MS and Apple projects. XD
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« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2012, 11:25:54 AM »

:I
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moi
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« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2012, 11:33:10 AM »

Quote
   
Kickstarter supporters are suckers.
I can't say I disagree with that.

That said Appbacker doesn't seem better, in fact it must be in some sort of legal grey area, I once asked why there was no investment scheme for game, I got the response that it was falling under a ton of legislation relating to stock exchange, corporate investment, money laundering and things like that.

also: for the develloper it doesn't seem really interesting, it's like taking a loan that never ends
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Shine Klevit
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« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2012, 11:37:16 AM »

Kickstarter gives us the illusion that free enterprise works. Allows one to feel like he or she is spending money into something worthwhile rather than wasting it.

It's a good idea, just really too bloated to remain permanent. It's the same reason why painters used to buddy up with tycoon's wives, and other socialites. It's the only way they could make a living, and get noticed, sadly.
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Cobralad
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« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2012, 11:55:27 AM »

Yeah, I think kickstarter is not for cool people. Instead of asking money from interested people we should do it in old style: go to some moron, who got no interest in your game, nor knowledge of market or current player demand in hope to get some money Gentleman.
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ThemsAllTook
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« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2012, 12:00:03 PM »

Considering you are going to fund a pay check for people to work on their dream project and keep all the profits to themsleves, you ARE a sucker.

Dude, seriously? I think you're completely missing the point, or at least have a different definition of "sucker" than I do. When I back a kickstarter project, it's because "their dream project" is something I want to see come to fruition, not because I want to somehow make money off them. Giving them money isn't a demand to give me something back, it's a way to say "I think you're doing something cool, and I want to help you complete it if money is the bottleneck". Again, do you have specific examples where people have run off with donations with no intention of completing their project?
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themindstream
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« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2012, 12:10:48 PM »

Unless they actually expect a profitable return on their money, they're not suckers.

Unless they could have self-funded the project anyway, it's not like giving money to Apple or Microsoft. Apple or Microsoft would never use Kickstarter and would be laughed off it if they did.

It is, to a large degree, patronage. It's not just artists that attached themselves to the wealthy and powerful in order to secure a living, it's the wealthy and powerful that sought the prestige of sponsoring works of art, and the satisfaction of seeing work completed. Most of the famous artists and musicians from the Medieval Age to the Industrial Revolution worked with patrons. If someone has $100, $1000, sitting around doing nothing...well there may be better ways to spend it, but there are certainly worse ways as well. If a person, knowing full well that they aren't making a monetary return, puts money into a Kickstarter, that's their prerogative and there's nothing wrong with it. If the Kickstarted project is completed to their satisfaction, they may well consider it money well spent.
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zalzane
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« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2012, 12:10:53 PM »

You can drop the project after getting funded, just like in Kickstarter. But I think it tracks your profits in the Apple store, so you can't just fool everyone.

What do you mean fooling anyone? Once you get the money, just don't make an app. Close your account or abandon it. It doesn't matter whether or not you actually make an app.
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PompiPompi
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« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2012, 12:16:00 PM »

edit: zalzane, and that is different from Kickstarter how?
The difference is that maybe Apple will ban you or somethn glike that. I dunno.
Anyway, the general idea is what I ment, even if it's currently not implemented properly.


Why do you keep bringing the "running off with donations" argument, it's irrelevant to what I say.

Well, sure, making a game being made is something you "get back". But you are still a sucker anyway. Why is it so hard for you to agree you are a sucker?
The people you donate money to might:
A) Not invest any of their own money on the project.
B) Might even give themselves pay checks from the money you gave them.
C) Will keep all profits from their project.
D) Might not give you any dime for your own project if you ask them to.

Just admit you are a sucker, there is no shame on that.

Some Kickstarter projects "make sense". As in, you fund a cause or something that will "give back".
But when you fund a game on kickstarter, you just fund their business plan. There are so many games out there, is your only choice to find enough entertainment is to donate 100$ to make a game?
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« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2012, 12:21:50 PM »

It gives the people a chance to participate in development of something they believe to be worthwhile. Honestly I always thought this idea is kind of backwards, but it appears to be working.

We could just simplify and say the entire Internet is money-sucking scam. Tongue
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zalzane
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« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2012, 12:25:40 PM »

Quote
Why do you keep bringing the "running off with donations" argument, it's irrelevant to what I say.

Because that's exactly what a lot of people are planning to do, and is the biggest problem with the concept, on kickstarter and on that other site.
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Shine Klevit
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« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2012, 12:30:05 PM »

Yeah, I think kickstarter is not for cool people. Instead of asking money from interested people we should do it in old style: go to some moron, who got no interest in your game, nor knowledge of market or current player demand in hope to get some money Gentleman.

You kinda missed the point of my metaphor.
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ThemsAllTook
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« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2012, 12:32:41 PM »

Well, sure, making a game being made is something you "get back". But you are still a sucker anyway. Why is it so hard for you to agree you are a sucker?
The people you donate money to might:
A) Not invest any of their own money on the project.
B) Might even give themselves pay checks from the money you gave them.
C) Will keep all profits from their project.
D) Might not give you any dime for your own project if you ask them to.

Just admit you are a sucker, there is no shame on that.

I'm completely aware of and OK with all of those things. If that's all you're saying, our only disagreement is on the definition of "sucker", which in this context would mean a person who has been swindled out of their money, by giving it to someone expecting something they've been led to believe but the person they're giving their money to has no intention to follow through with what they've promised. That doesn't apply to this situation at all, because (speaking for myself, at least) my expectations of what will be done with my money matches what's actually done with it. You seem to be using an inflammatory term just for the purpose of stirring up trouble.

The reason I'm bringing up "running off with donations" is because I'm trying to see if you have some piece of information to demonstrate that my expectation of what's being done with my money isn't matched with what's being done with it. You don't seem to, so you appear to be using the term "sucker" incorrectly.
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PompiPompi
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« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2012, 12:37:19 PM »

It gives the people a chance to participate in development of something they believe to be worthwhile. Honestly I always thought this idea is kind of backwards, but it appears to be working.

We could just simplify and say the entire Internet is money-sucking scam. Tongue
"participate in development". Well, if you going to watch a game developed from day one, it's going to ruin you the fun experience of playing a complete new game.

But anyway, my point still stands. There are more good games out there than anyone can play. Why would you spend 100$ to fund just one of these games, especially that this 100$ are not going to "spread out".
You are better off using these 100$ to buy several games from smaller indie developers and support them so they could make more games in the future.

Some projects are indeed unique and new, but many Kickstarter projects(mainly games) have existing alternatives.
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impulse9
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« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2012, 12:41:59 PM »

Well, if you going to watch a game developed from day one, it's going to ruin you the fun experience of playing a complete new game.

That's why I think the idea is kind of backwards. It's like suggesting to the writer what to write instead of buying the book when it's finished. But the main point I guess is that many of these projects wouldn't be able to see the light of day without funding.

The question now is, does this increase quality or quantity of the products being made?
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randomshade
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« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2012, 12:45:12 PM »

The majority of KS video game projects use KS as a glorified pre-order system: the "get a copy of the game" tier is usually far and away the most backed pledge*. So I guess if you fundamentally disagree with the idea of pre-orders, KS would seem equally vile. Otherwise, hating on KS seems kind of hypocritical to me.

Yes, some people pledge larger amounts of money to get extra stuff and yes, they are probably paying quite the premium for said stuff. But that's (1) known up front (aka you are not a sucker) and (2) appeals to [some] people's desire to be involved with things they strongly like or want to see made regardless the cost. It sounds like you're not one of those people, but thinking those people are suckers and/or fools is simply inaccurate.

I've backed a lot of VG projects on KS (~10), most at the pre-order level but some a bit higher and I've not regretted any of them [yet].

*KS vehemently denies they are a store, but my experience is that the majority of the people use them as such.
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