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998289 Posts in 39150 Topics- by 30561 Members - Latest Member: garret559

April 18, 2014, 04:07:00 PM
TIGSource ForumsPlayerGeneralKickstarter supporters are suckers.
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Author Topic: Kickstarter supporters are suckers.  (Read 6180 times)
Shine Klevit The Utopian Peasent
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« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2012, 12:30:05 PM »

Yeah, I think kickstarter is not for cool people. Instead of asking money from interested people we should do it in old style: go to some moron, who got no interest in your game, nor knowledge of market or current player demand in hope to get some money Gentleman.

You kinda missed the point of my metaphor.
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ThemsAllTook
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« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2012, 12:32:41 PM »

Well, sure, making a game being made is something you "get back". But you are still a sucker anyway. Why is it so hard for you to agree you are a sucker?
The people you donate money to might:
A) Not invest any of their own money on the project.
B) Might even give themselves pay checks from the money you gave them.
C) Will keep all profits from their project.
D) Might not give you any dime for your own project if you ask them to.

Just admit you are a sucker, there is no shame on that.

I'm completely aware of and OK with all of those things. If that's all you're saying, our only disagreement is on the definition of "sucker", which in this context would mean a person who has been swindled out of their money, by giving it to someone expecting something they've been led to believe but the person they're giving their money to has no intention to follow through with what they've promised. That doesn't apply to this situation at all, because (speaking for myself, at least) my expectations of what will be done with my money matches what's actually done with it. You seem to be using an inflammatory term just for the purpose of stirring up trouble.

The reason I'm bringing up "running off with donations" is because I'm trying to see if you have some piece of information to demonstrate that my expectation of what's being done with my money isn't matched with what's being done with it. You don't seem to, so you appear to be using the term "sucker" incorrectly.
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PompiPompi
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« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2012, 12:37:19 PM »

It gives the people a chance to participate in development of something they believe to be worthwhile. Honestly I always thought this idea is kind of backwards, but it appears to be working.

We could just simplify and say the entire Internet is money-sucking scam. Tongue
"participate in development". Well, if you going to watch a game developed from day one, it's going to ruin you the fun experience of playing a complete new game.

But anyway, my point still stands. There are more good games out there than anyone can play. Why would you spend 100$ to fund just one of these games, especially that this 100$ are not going to "spread out".
You are better off using these 100$ to buy several games from smaller indie developers and support them so they could make more games in the future.

Some projects are indeed unique and new, but many Kickstarter projects(mainly games) have existing alternatives.
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« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2012, 12:41:59 PM »

Well, if you going to watch a game developed from day one, it's going to ruin you the fun experience of playing a complete new game.

That's why I think the idea is kind of backwards. It's like suggesting to the writer what to write instead of buying the book when it's finished. But the main point I guess is that many of these projects wouldn't be able to see the light of day without funding.

The question now is, does this increase quality or quantity of the products being made?
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randomshade
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« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2012, 12:45:12 PM »

The majority of KS video game projects use KS as a glorified pre-order system: the "get a copy of the game" tier is usually far and away the most backed pledge*. So I guess if you fundamentally disagree with the idea of pre-orders, KS would seem equally vile. Otherwise, hating on KS seems kind of hypocritical to me.

Yes, some people pledge larger amounts of money to get extra stuff and yes, they are probably paying quite the premium for said stuff. But that's (1) known up front (aka you are not a sucker) and (2) appeals to [some] people's desire to be involved with things they strongly like or want to see made regardless the cost. It sounds like you're not one of those people, but thinking those people are suckers and/or fools is simply inaccurate.

I've backed a lot of VG projects on KS (~10), most at the pre-order level but some a bit higher and I've not regretted any of them [yet].

*KS vehemently denies they are a store, but my experience is that the majority of the people use them as such.
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randomshade
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« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2012, 12:49:32 PM »

Quote
Why do you keep bringing the "running off with donations" argument, it's irrelevant to what I say.

Because that's exactly what a lot of people are planning to do, and is the biggest problem with the concept, on kickstarter and on that other site.

I ask out of sheer curiosity but do you have any examples of this? I agree that the above is the biggest risk of those systems, but in practical experience I've seen very little of it actually occur.
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zalzane
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« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2012, 12:58:47 PM »

You're not going to see it occur until games start missing their deadlines.

Those witchhunters at reddit were the first to find such a scam project:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/sxa9b/kickstarter_scam_project_mythic_story_of_gods/
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s_l_m
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« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2012, 01:03:03 PM »

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/digitalmanga/publish-osamu-tezukas-unico-in-english-in-full-col
All I know is that Triton wouldn't have been able to be translated into English otherwise. And as far as I am concerned, I am willing to part with a little cash (even if its more then the value of the book will be in stores). Because of my emotional connection to the work of Tezuka I am willing to lose that little amount of money so other people (not to mention, y'know, me) will be able to read it. I imagine this is the mentality that the kickstarter people intended when they made the platform.

All this is just my opinion of course, but if it can get awesome things done, I am all for it.
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« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2012, 01:03:35 PM »

Quote
Why do you keep bringing the "running off with donations" argument, it's irrelevant to what I say.

Because that's exactly what a lot of people are planning to do, and is the biggest problem with the concept, on kickstarter and on that other site.

I ask out of sheer curiosity but do you have any examples of this? I agree that the above is the biggest risk of those systems, but in practical experience I've seen very little of it actually occur.

A team of developers I went to school with seemed to do this.  They got Kickstarted, but now it's been over a year (way too long for the project they were working on) and they're not talking about the Kickstarter project anymore, but now they're hyping up something new.  It's been very frustrating to watch.
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randomshade
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« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2012, 01:17:10 PM »

To be fair, 2 of the projects I've backed are late (>3 months late, >1 month late) but in neither case have they just disappeared; I still get updates from them and progress is pretty visible. From what I can tell (and of course I'm an outsider) both will still get done.

Yeah, obviously any scam project that doesn't get caught during the funding stages won't make shockwaves until it totally disappears. And since it's impossible to excise every scam during the vetting process, there is implied risk on the buyer. My experiences have all been quite positive though over the past 18 months, so I optimistically think that the scam rate will be extremely low. I'm also pretty picky of the teams/projects I back and I [wrongfully] assume that of anyone else who uses KS.

Big Edit: I had some more thoughts on this in general.

I think it an important thing to distinguish between something being ran truly as a scam and something that doesn't get completed but for all intents and purposes was attempted. The latter is simply the inherent risk involved with something like KS (or even normal video game pre-orders to a lesser degree) and why it is important for folks who purchase stuff on KS to be picky/choosy about who and what they support. The former is the much more vile and devious thing which most people consider to be the path of failure for KS. In regards to that, scams are an existential threat to KS and I cannot imagine that they would not adjust policies on the fly such as requiring specific things for different categories; such as, perhaps, a playable demo for any video game.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 08:12:54 PM by randomshade » Logged

PompiPompi
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« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2012, 10:14:50 AM »

randomshade, many kick starter game projects don't even have a demo or anything playable.
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« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2012, 10:33:05 AM »

Maybe it got something to do with the fact that they are not selling game but asking money for development.
Also, normal people tent to like  finished heavily patched games only, and if they play in-progress alpha, they count thigs like bugs or placeholder stuff as flaws.
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Nitro Crate
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« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2012, 03:09:47 PM »

Pompi is practicing satire right?

I mean, on an indie game developer forum, no less.

"When I make games...I make it for the cash moneys."
-Derek Yu
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Capntastic
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« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2012, 03:34:28 PM »

Look all I'm saying is that every human interaction should be a transaction of currency where I come out ahead, is that so much to ask?
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ஒழுக்கின்மை
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« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2012, 05:26:04 PM »

the return on investment, or profit if you will, is that more of the types of games that you want to exist will exist. that's really what you are buying, you are buying a change in direction in which types of games are made and which aren't
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