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Konidias
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« Reply #300 on: April 12, 2013, 01:47:12 PM »

Pledged $25. Make it happen! Smiley
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« Reply #301 on: April 12, 2013, 04:05:19 PM »

Ooh, I was tempted to back this but considering your demo is meant to seal the deal, it has some really bone-headed problems.

First of all, the keyboard control layout is *disgraceful* - seriously, you don't need that many buttons - A to interact with things when CURSOR UP does nothing most of the time? The mere fact that many buttons double-up functionality in some situations should have made you realise how wasteful it was. And whoever thought having the jump button be so far away from the other buttons you use for interactions is either a pianist or simply didn't play the game on anything but a control pad because 30 seconds of play should have shown how unworkable a layout it is considering that, as a platform game, you *might* be expected to jump a fair bit AND hit things as well. Why didn't you just opt for something like A/S/D = Jump/Attack1/Attack2 and CURSOR UP to interact?

And the controls when you're in menus seem almost randomly assigned - for me, it would be far better if you had one button which was effectively SELECT and one which was BACK and then split up the menu actions into sub-menus so I'm not accidentally eating stuff or throwing stuff I don't want to when all I want to do is get out of the damn menu.

Plus the enemy movement is *really* cheap in terms of unfairness. Those bat enemies which just move completely randomly at high speed? Bad. The lizards who'll poke you with your sword as soon as you get close to them so it's impossible to fight them without losing health? Bad. Any way you slice it, it's not good design and it doesn't instill confidence in the full product, which is exactly what your demo should have done.

It's a real pity, because pretty much EVERYTHING else about the game is great. If obvious issues like these are going to be addressed, then sure, you can have my money but if those were very deliberate design decisions then yeesh.
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« Reply #302 on: April 12, 2013, 04:09:56 PM »

I definitely agree with DrDerekDoctors about the controls.  Probably my biggest complaint with the demo.

Other than that, the demo just felt a bit bland.  There wasn't really anything that made me want to keep playing, aside from the visuals (Which are excellent, of course).  Maybe it's just not for me, who knows...
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« Reply #303 on: April 12, 2013, 09:18:10 PM »

Still loving where this is going, and I'm sure "custom controls" are gonna be in the final build, they usually have that sort of thing now.

I personally LOVE how there's twitchy enemy movement, but telltale signs that let you know right about when to strike. There's a good rhythm to it so that when you catch on, you "get it," but there's still a tight enough margin of error where it's still kind of challenging to pull off. Damage rates vs. item distribution is pretty fair too, considering you're working from such small starting figures.

You *might* consider adding a casual difficulty option that drops their speed 20-25% though, for players that are more accustomed to Koopa Troopas and the like. The lack of vertical attack/defense is pretty bothersome, however; especially when moving upwards. If you are going to map interaction to "Y" and not "up," then at least give "up" that functionality.

I see the level generator has changed quite a bit; it's more a path-builder now and less a variable-path box. I personally liked the other one a bit more, but understand why you'd go with the current build. Might I suggest a version that takes a starting point, and makes two paths towards the exit - one horizontal-vertical-horizontal, the other vertical-horizontal-vertical (or maybe two intersecting 180s?), so as to make a makeshift figure 8 or some loopback points; and then tack on your additional rooms (refresh points, save points, altars, etc.) to that? It adds a little non-linear spice and choice to the mix, so that when/if you backtrack and/or re-traverse areas, you can take different routes and keep it fresh.
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« Reply #304 on: April 12, 2013, 09:39:41 PM »

Plus the enemy movement is *really* cheap in terms of unfairness. Those bat enemies which just move completely randomly at high speed? Bad. The lizards who'll poke you with your sword as soon as you get close to them so it's impossible to fight them without losing health? Bad. Any way you slice it, it's not good design and it doesn't instill confidence in the full product, which is exactly what your demo should have done.

I'm going to jump in here and defend the enemies' movement and the difficulty of the game. I gave the game a go at GDC and I admit it was hard, but it was a satisfying kind of difficulty. Not quite as torturous as Dark Souls, but each enemy does have a behaviour which can be learnt and overcome. The bats actually move around randomly for a bit (without hitting you), but then they swoop at you very predictably, which is when they are open for attack.

As baconman said, I agree that the movement is really quite tight (in a good way), though another difficult option is always something you could consider. An easier difficulty option will open the game up to a wider audience, but I suspect the target players you're aiming for will appreciate the game as it is now.
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« Reply #305 on: April 13, 2013, 12:23:21 AM »

Agreed about bad controls and overall blandness. Joypad support is must.
There is nothing really interesting beside graphic, story and overall setting are extreemely generic, so there is simply no desire to explore further in demo for me.
As for enemies, there should be more tactics. RPG Castlevanias were using old design stuff like medusa heads or axe armors to make interesting patterns for each room, you werent just going forward and punching stuff.
Also, maybe beggining should be more dynamic, going around and talking to three people is not very interesting.
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« Reply #306 on: April 13, 2013, 02:40:49 AM »

I'm not going to mention the controls, because it's already done.

But, would it be cool to add some better health warning system, I find myself dying sometimes because I didn't pay enough attention to my health bar. I'm a guy that mostly focuses on the center of the screen when I'm playing.

Maybe the char can blink red or something like that when he's really low?


Edit: I find it very annoying to fight in an angle, often I find myself standing in a slope, trying to hit but I can't hit. So I'm forced to go "into" the enemy then I'm getting hit. Could be a skill thing too, I'm just not good enough =)
« Last Edit: April 13, 2013, 05:37:46 AM by Hipshot » Logged

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« Reply #307 on: April 13, 2013, 03:58:44 AM »

As others have said, bats are a pain in the anus to fight. Without any upwards attack I'd be tempted to say weight them towards attacking from the sides. Or maybe have them bludgeon towards the player in a predictable, dodgable manner.

Gamepad support is along a bit weird.

Deadzones feel pretty off. I found myself ducking a tad more often than I meant, and in menus where you are scrolling up and down it would far too often register by downwards flick of the analogue stick as a sidewards one and not scroll down the list at all.
Also repeatedly flicking the analogue stick down doesn't feel natural at all. Holding it down to have it auto-scroll through would be better.
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« Reply #308 on: April 13, 2013, 08:53:17 AM »

I wanted to add some feedback on the Kickstarter, but let me preface that by saying that although it will come across as harsh, I'm only wanting Chasm to succeed, we met at GDC Play and I'm very excited for the game. The following is of course just my 2c, and coming from the position of a potential backer (and someone experienced in pitching games to publishers and developers):

- $150,000 is a lot of money. I was honestly surprised by this, as I was expecting around 50k when I clicked the Kickstarter link. I really think this is going to induce some sticker shock in potential backers and make them wary of backing. So I would explain more why you need this much if possible, especially in terms of how it benefits the player because you're going to make this amazing experience, talk more in depth about the ideas for bosses, spellbooks, the replayability, epicness, the number of hours expected to beat the game etc

- I'm not a Kickstarter expert, so I can't say if it's a mistake going for that much money relative to other 2D indie games. Perception and comparisons are a big thing here, (especially with kickstarter fatigue setting in for a lot of people) even if Chasm is a much bigger game than retro platformer x that raised 15k. And if that's the case leverage this as part of your sell. I dont really get the feeling from the Kickstarter that the game is this huge epic thing because it has (for example) hundreds of items, dozens of hours, a 30 hour quest etc, and that's why it needs this amount of funding. If you need the money that's cool, just explain it Smiley

- Some people have said that they felt the game is a bit unoriginal or missing something. I can't really comment as I only played the demo at GDC very briefly but either way, I don't feel your "current or planned features" section is selling the game as well as it could:

  • "Enjoy smooth, responsive control, challenging retro gameplay and gorgeous authentic pixel art (320×180 native resolution)" - Smooth responsive controls are what I expect any game worth its salt to have. It's not a great "back of the box" feature when you are championing your game just to get made let alone bought. You could sex this up by talking about how they'll be similar to the controls in Symphony of the Night, or whatever classic game you are trying to emulate in this regard. As for "authentic pixel art" I have no idea what that means. Is it authentic because you're running in 320x180? Because you're not using any photoshop trickery, everything is by hand?
  • "Play how you want by equipping weapons, spellbooks, shields, and more to both hands" - Tell what is unique what spellbooks, how many weapons will there be, what sort of cool gameplay does dual wielding weapons/spellbooks open up?
  • "Uncover random loot drops and rare items" - Approx. how many items will there be? Varieties? I want to know that the completionist freak within is going to be satisfied with months of play to find everything. If you're not sure on numbers, you can always say "hundreds" or "200+" etc.
  • "Battle massive bosses & mini-bosses" - Tell me things like how many bosses will there be, does procedural generation come into affect here, like maybe abilities get mixed and matched creating variations of bosses, I don't know. Again touchstones here are great, e.g "Epic multi-stage boss fights in the style of Castlevania" SotN

I've rambled enough. Hope this is helpful, but feel free to disregard of course. Good luck!!!
« Last Edit: April 13, 2013, 08:58:50 AM by editmode » Logged

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« Reply #309 on: April 13, 2013, 03:19:20 PM »

First of all, the keyboard control layout is *disgraceful*

Keyboard controls are pretty much an after-thought right now. We were focused squarely on gamepad for public demonstration purposes, and this demo is that without any changes. In the final game you will be able to map things however you want - everyone we asked has suggested something completely different so it's impossible to please everyone aside from adding custom mapping.

Maybe the char can blink red or something like that when he's really low?

Edit: I find it very annoying to fight in an angle, often I find myself standing in a slope, trying to hit but I can't hit. So I'm forced to go "into" the enemy then I'm getting hit. Could be a skill thing too, I'm just not good enough =)

I totally agree about a visible sign around the character, or maybe a flash or something. It can be hard to spot your health meter while in the thick of action.

We're also aware of the slope battling problem, and we'll be adding a diagonal crouch attack I think to remedy it.

- $150,000 is a lot of money. I was honestly surprised by this, as I was expecting around 50k when I clicked the Kickstarter link.

$150k sounds like a lot, but it's actually a really low budget for a good sized game. We lose about $30k off the top due to Kickstarter fees, Amazon Payments, failed transactions, and producing physical rewards. That leaves $120k to split between 5 grown adults (some with families) to work full-time for a year. If you evenly divide that it's $24k each, but since we have other expenses to account for, it's even less. So in reality, we'll be working at somewhere around minimum wage for a year to get this game made. It's definitely a project of passion, but we have to be realistic and not ask for $50k and still expect to pay rent, buy food, and pay bills for a year.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2013, 05:56:40 PM by DiscordGames » Logged
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« Reply #310 on: April 13, 2013, 11:27:06 PM »

If they keep at the pace they are going with Kickstarter, they will hit their $150k goal like halfway through. Smiley I didn't even get to play the demo or anything yet, but I pledged solely on the stuff I had seen in the earlier posts of the dev log. It seemed like there was a lot of attention to detail so I just hope it shines through in the final version of the game.

I also think it was a smart move to do $15 minimum pledge and the $25 "early bird" thing... I would have just pledged $15 but the $25 limited pledge seemed like a deal so I went with that. It seems to be working since already over half of the pledges for that have been taken.
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« Reply #311 on: April 14, 2013, 01:09:47 PM »

And - speaking from someone with some experience in the area; writing a level-designing algorhythm that captures the design-feel of this kind of game is far more tricky than writing the static levels it feels like you're experiencing, and takes considerably more time to implement and troubleshoot.

I'm making a level generator more like Chasm's first build, but more left-to-right oriented than top-to-bottom; and more inspired by MegaMan/Sonic the Hedgehog than Castlevania per se... and getting that designed, programmed, implemented, and troubleshot took nearly a whole year, and a few failed/reconcieved prototypes before that.

(Chasm is coming along far quicker/smoother than my project is, admittedly.)

I would suggest something akin to Zelda II's upward/downward thrust system, but with penetration/followthrough instead of pogo-sticking enemies; for the inclines and bats.
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« Reply #312 on: April 14, 2013, 01:10:47 PM »

I would almost suggest something akin to Zelda II's upward/downward thrust system, but with penetration/followthrough instead of pogo-sticking enemies; for the inclines and bats.

Agreed, I think we're going to add a downward attack of some sort for sure. It might end up as a special ability even?
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« Reply #313 on: April 15, 2013, 02:01:28 AM »

I wanted to add some feedback on the Kickstarter, but let me preface that by saying that although it will come across as harsh, I'm only wanting Chasm to succeed, we met at GDC Play and I'm very excited for the game. The following is of course just my 2c, and coming from the position of a potential backer (and someone experienced in pitching games to publishers and developers):

- $150,000 is a lot of money. I was honestly surprised by this, as I was expecting around 50k when I clicked the Kickstarter link. I really think this is going to induce some sticker shock in potential backers and make them wary of backing. So I would explain more why you need this much if possible, especially in terms of how it benefits the player because you're going to make this amazing experience, talk more in depth about the ideas for bosses, spellbooks, the replayability, epicness, the number of hours expected to beat the game etc

- I'm not a Kickstarter expert, so I can't say if it's a mistake going for that much money relative to other 2D indie games. Perception and comparisons are a big thing here, (especially with kickstarter fatigue setting in for a lot of people) even if Chasm is a much bigger game than retro platformer x that raised 15k. And if that's the case leverage this as part of your sell. I dont really get the feeling from the Kickstarter that the game is this huge epic thing because it has (for example) hundreds of items, dozens of hours, a 30 hour quest etc, and that's why it needs this amount of funding. If you need the money that's cool, just explain it Smiley

- Some people have said that they felt the game is a bit unoriginal or missing something. I can't really comment as I only played the demo at GDC very briefly but either way, I don't feel your "current or planned features" section is selling the game as well as it could:

  • "Enjoy smooth, responsive control, challenging retro gameplay and gorgeous authentic pixel art (320×180 native resolution)" - Smooth responsive controls are what I expect any game worth its salt to have. It's not a great "back of the box" feature when you are championing your game just to get made let alone bought. You could sex this up by talking about how they'll be similar to the controls in Symphony of the Night, or whatever classic game you are trying to emulate in this regard. As for "authentic pixel art" I have no idea what that means. Is it authentic because you're running in 320x180? Because you're not using any photoshop trickery, everything is by hand?
  • "Play how you want by equipping weapons, spellbooks, shields, and more to both hands" - Tell what is unique what spellbooks, how many weapons will there be, what sort of cool gameplay does dual wielding weapons/spellbooks open up?
  • "Uncover random loot drops and rare items" - Approx. how many items will there be? Varieties? I want to know that the completionist freak within is going to be satisfied with months of play to find everything. If you're not sure on numbers, you can always say "hundreds" or "200+" etc.
  • "Battle massive bosses & mini-bosses" - Tell me things like how many bosses will there be, does procedural generation come into affect here, like maybe abilities get mixed and matched creating variations of bosses, I don't know. Again touchstones here are great, e.g "Epic multi-stage boss fights in the style of Castlevania" SotN

I've rambled enough. Hope this is helpful, but feel free to disregard of course. Good luck!!!

I just wanted to say that I think that's a great comment.
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« Reply #314 on: April 15, 2013, 05:57:01 AM »

I found it pretty crazy having in-game items as pledge rewards...
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« Reply #315 on: April 15, 2013, 08:06:06 AM »

Yeah, not sure I agree with that, either - although at least it isn't multiplayer, then there'd really be something to bitch about. Anyhoo, on the promise that the controls will be configurable, I've backed it.
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« Reply #316 on: April 15, 2013, 10:39:30 AM »

Just downloaded and played the OSX demo. Works like a charm, didn't notice any bugs that seem specific to the OSX build. I have to say that after 45 minutes of play I was still confusing the buttons constantly. Three button design should really become two. Just have one of the attack buttons activate conversations and going through doors, and add a "select" button for dropping items and bring up the map quickly.

Design-wise, I always thought it would be a clever mechanic to have the map autogenerate the areas, but leave it up to the player to correctly label stuff. Keep up the great work, you have been getting some great advice in this thread lately. Though I think loot rewards for being a backer is a great idea and a relatively common practice.
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« Reply #317 on: April 15, 2013, 10:46:10 AM »

Just downloaded and played the OSX demo. Works like a charm, didn't notice any bugs that seem specific to the OSX build. I have to say that after 45 minutes of play I was still confusing the buttons constantly. Three button design should really become two. Just have one of the attack buttons activate conversations and going through doors, and add a "select" button for dropping items and bring up the map quickly.

Design-wise, I always thought it would be a clever mechanic to have the map autogenerate the areas, but leave it up to the player to correctly label stuff. Keep up the great work, you have been getting some great advice in this thread lately. Though I think loot rewards for being a backer is a great idea and a relatively common practice.

Thanks for the feedback. We'll definitely be revamping the keyboard controls after all the feedback we've gotten. I did my best guess.. and apparently that wasn't good enough Wink
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« Reply #318 on: April 15, 2013, 11:46:17 AM »

I've backed Chasm already, but all the same, here's my critique from the demo:

- No health warning system of note. I'd personally go for a sound cue as well as a more visual warning, but I agree with the other posts that something extra is needed.

- A few 'unfair' places where it doesn't seem possible to proceed without getting hit. Maybe I'm just not awesome enough, but I came across a couple of instances of the drop-worms hanging over a high ledge which was far enough away that I could only just reach it with a full-length jump... but that meant just eating the worm with no chance to avoid it. Jumping less far didn't trigger the worm so I couldn't pre-drop it and kill it first as was often possible elsewhere.

- Just as bad, to my eye: cases where I have to progress upward into territory I've not seen before, and a drop-worm from above the top of the screen falls on me before I have a chance to see it.

- The scope of attacks are too limited. I'd prefer to be able to direct attacks up and down, to be honest, as well as the current left and right. I guess down is half-done already with the crouching attacks, but there's certainly a case for attacking upward, if you ask me. Like the cases above (ha ha). Similarly there were a few places where a downward-while-jumping attack could be useful, like the various nests of rats on short platforms, leaving little space to drop in without getting hit.

- Mostly, though - and this is a feature-request/suggestion rather than a complaint about something in particular - I found myself wanting a wider range of attacks; I'd have preferred my guy to play more like a fighting game/brawler character, so a) when I came up against those stabby lizard-people I could do something a bit more interesting than just repeat the same attack cycle and b) the game felt a little more control-deep as a result. Not to the extent of wanting blocks and so on, but... maybe a couple of key-combo things like a rush-attack move that gives you a quick hit on something but has a pause after the hit that you can't act in, or a slash-and-hop-back or whatever. As it is, most of the combat consists of either i) hanging around somewhere where the enemy is going to move and hitting them as soon as they get within range or ii) jumping over the enemy and hitting them from behind. Or iii) just standing there and flailing with the weapon until they die, even though you're getting hit. ;-)  Even just combo-chains with the standard attacks would be an improvement, if you ask me. (The end of the demo makes it look like there's going to be boss fights which are harder/more involved than the regular enemies, which makes me want something else to do with my knife/sword even more.)

- I find it kind of depressing that you feel the need to tell us how 'chasm' is pronounced. Do people really mess it up that often?

- If the game is going to be very long, it could get to be a pain in the arse to trek through all the low-level stages you've cleared a dozen times each time you want to go back to town. Speaking of which, other than being pulled out of the dungeon mine and forced to start your downward progress again, is there actually any disadvantage to being killed? I mean, if I'd gathered a load of cash and gems and I wanted to return to town to buy some shiny new toys, is there anything that lessens the incentive to just kill myself? 'Cause that seems a bit... wrong.

- More or less everything else I enjoyed.
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« Reply #319 on: April 15, 2013, 11:51:00 AM »

- No health warning system of note. I'd personally go for a sound cue as well as a more visual warning, but I agree with the other posts that something extra is needed.

- A few 'unfair' places where it doesn't seem possible to proceed without getting hit. Maybe I'm just not awesome enough, but I came across a couple of instances of the drop-worms hanging over a high ledge which was far enough away that I could only just reach it with a full-length jump... but that meant just eating the worm with no chance to avoid it. Jumping less far didn't trigger the worm so I couldn't pre-drop it and kill it first as was often possible elsewhere.

- Just as bad, to my eye: cases where I have to progress upward into territory I've not seen before, and a drop-worm from above the top of the screen falls on me before I have a chance to see it.

- The scope of attacks are too limited. I'd prefer to be able to direct attacks up and down, to be honest, as well as the current left and right. I guess down is half-done already with the crouching attacks, but there's certainly a case for attacking upward, if you ask me. Like the cases above (ha ha). Similarly there were a few places where a downward-while-jumping attack could be useful, like the various nests of rats on short platforms, leaving little space to drop in without getting hit.

- Mostly, though - and this is a feature-request/suggestion rather than a complaint about something in particular - I found myself wanting a wider range of attacks; I'd have preferred my guy to play more like a fighting game/brawler character, so a) when I came up against those stabby lizard-people I could do something a bit more interesting than just repeat the same attack cycle and b) the game felt a little more control-deep as a result. Not to the extent of wanting blocks and so on, but... maybe a couple of key-combo things like a rush-attack move that gives you a quick hit on something but has a pause after the hit that you can't act in, or a slash-and-hop-back or whatever. As it is, most of the combat consists of either i) hanging around somewhere where the enemy is going to move and hitting them as soon as they get within range or ii) jumping over the enemy and hitting them from behind. Or iii) just standing there and flailing with the weapon until they die, even though you're getting hit. ;-)  Even just combo-chains with the standard attacks would be an improvement, if you ask me. (The end of the demo makes it look like there's going to be boss fights which are harder/more involved than the regular enemies, which makes me want something else to do with my knife/sword even more.)

- I find it kind of depressing that you feel the need to tell us how 'chasm' is pronounced. Do people really mess it up that often?

- If the game is going to be very long, it could get to be a pain in the arse to trek through all the low-level stages you've cleared a dozen times each time you want to go back to town. Speaking of which, other than being pulled out of the dungeon mine and forced to start your downward progress again, is there actually any disadvantage to being killed? I mean, if I'd gathered a load of cash and gems and I wanted to return to town to buy some shiny new toys, is there anything that lessens the incentive to just kill myself? 'Cause that seems a bit... wrong.

- More or less everything else I enjoyed.

Thanks for the feedback! We'll be adding some extra warning systems for health. You can use the right thumbstick to look up and down in vertical sections (or up/down on keyboard). We'll be re-working the combat system to improve it - this is just kind of a starting baseline. The final game will have a teleport system that will help you get back to town easier as you progress.
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