J-Snake
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« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2013, 08:52:56 PM » |
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it's intended to be a useful record of what you did each day There can be actually value in doing so if one tracks all the shortcomings in how the things are currently implemented to improve the engine/code-base for the next game, not just typing out what you have done each day. I for example tracked a good number of shortcomings in my code-base during the development of TrapThem. I need to address them for my next engine-design. I don't need a devlog for that but a personal devlog wouldn't hurt, I guess, if you are pleased to spend your time with that.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2013, 09:13:11 PM » |
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it's not like it's time-consuming. it takes literally 30 seconds a day -- you probably spend more time brushing your teeth
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Klaim
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« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2013, 04:38:57 AM » |
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Ok, I totally misunderstood what you meant by devlog (I didn't check the log at first, sorry). You mean just reporting quickly what you did today. I have this on a paper notebook. Making it public would be interesting...
I don't know any other dev who publish this, so I guess you must consider a lot of developers bieng on the path to failure.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2013, 04:47:04 AM » |
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eh? i specifically said it's not important to make it public. just that it exists.
version control can also work as a devlog; a lot of devs leave comments about what they did each time they commit their work
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Klaim
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« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2013, 04:59:04 AM » |
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eh? i specifically said it's not important to make it public. just that it exists.
Sorry I wasn't clear: I was talking about your criteria - there is no devlog, or the devlog is not active and hasn't been updated in months But yeah it's not related to being public or not. What I meant is that, indeed, you can't know this criteria from outside the team most of the time. (because I thought you were talking about identifying a failing project from outside but it's not the case, misunderstanding again). Yeah I already do this in a mercurial repository too. My friends have scripts on their computer to duplicate my work (in case of HD crash) which is executed each time they startup, so they see my work briefly without understanding it of course. - most or all of the work so far has gone into the "engine" rather than actual game content In my current project, this point is what preoccupies me the most. Almost all my current efforts is to get out of working only on the game-specific engine, work on the in-game editor and start putting stuffs in.
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PythonBlue
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« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2013, 08:24:06 AM » |
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Honestly, I didn't expect this thread to get so popular where number of posts is concerned. XD
I also post to thank you all for the advice when it comes to the projects I'm on, some of which I've quietly withdrawn from, now.
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J-Snake
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« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2013, 09:39:25 AM » |
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it takes literally 30 seconds a day -- you probably spend more time brushing your teeth
If it would take me 30 seconds a day there wouldn't be any point in doing so for me, I would wait until there is something worth tracking. What do you intend to use it for? Do you make a statistic after the game is done, like how many days it took you to do this or that.
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Muz
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« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2013, 02:16:59 AM » |
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A devlog is the most unnecessary thing, personally. It is tempting to consider it just a fetish.
Not really. It's a good cure for the designer's block. Sometimes it's a symptom of overbubbling excitement. Sometimes it helps to break down ideas in your head to something that can be digested by people who can't read your mind. Sometimes when explaining an idea, you realize that it's not needed. I've done projects with and without devlogs... I find that devlogs really push forward progress, even though an entry could take an hour or so. I think it's mostly about being accountable.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2013, 03:03:07 AM » |
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it takes literally 30 seconds a day -- you probably spend more time brushing your teeth
If it would take me 30 seconds a day there wouldn't be any point in doing so for me, I would wait until there is something worth tracking. What do you intend to use it for? Do you make a statistic after the game is done, like how many days it took you to do this or that. i think you're missing the point of what it's for. it's not for tracking anything or statistics. have you ever kept a diary or journal of your life? it's the same type of thing. merely by writing something down, it causes you to think about it, to reflect on it, to examine yourself. for instance, with a devlog, you would more easily notice that you spent the last two weeks on some minor feature that isn't actually necessary or that most users will never see. without a devlog, it's easier to let things like that slip past you. it's also important for the team. team members want to know what other team members are doing each day. it's hard to keep up with each other's progress without a devlog, because who knows what the other people are even doing each day without one? another big benefit is for changelogs. each time you update your game, you want to provide users a list of changes. without a devlog how would you even make an accurate changelog?
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2013, 04:12:09 AM » |
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But yeah it's not related to being public or not. What I meant is that, indeed, you can't know this criteria from outside the team most of the time. (because I thought you were talking about identifying a failing project from outside but it's not the case, misunderstanding again).
ya, the original question was asking for signs that *one's own* game will be finished. not that signs that someone else's game will be finished. so in that context the criteria i gave make sense i think i'd also like to add one more -- if your game has no active playtesters, it's less likely to be finished. by that i mean people who play each build of your game and you send them new builds regularly. unfortunately this one applies to my own game SD, i should really get to the beta stage asap
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feminazi
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« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2013, 10:44:08 AM » |
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also don get da flu
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Muz
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« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2013, 03:05:40 PM » |
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it's also important for the team. team members want to know what other team members are doing each day. it's hard to keep up with each other's progress without a devlog, because who knows what the other people are even doing each day without one?
another big benefit is for changelogs. each time you update your game, you want to provide users a list of changes. without a devlog how would you even make an accurate changelog?
For some of these, a quality to do list works better. Something like Asana, but not a shared txt file.
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Klaim
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« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2013, 05:44:15 PM » |
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I believe a devlog being the reverse of a todolist, it's far more efficient because it don't kill hope in the egg by listing how much work you have to do but by listing how much work you did. Todo lists are really bad in the end. I mean, if you take them as things you have to absolutely do. I keep a list of things I thought at one point I should do, but I don't do everything, just keep them for later reminder of my thoughts. A shared todolist would immediately kill any motivation in a team I think.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2013, 05:52:28 PM » |
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i think without a to do list a team would collapse within a few months and be unable to work on a game. but as you say it's important to distinguish between must-do's and wishes. i always have *two* to do lists -- one of things absolutely necessary to add to the game, the other of things i'd like to add but are optional and not necessary, and i can cut them out if i don't have time or if they become too difficult to add. but trying to make a game, alone or with a team, without a to do list of any kind seems like suicide to me. it'd be like trying to write a novel without an outline, or trying to direct a movie without a screenplay
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Klaim
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« Reply #34 on: January 30, 2013, 04:58:27 AM » |
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Ok so it's more than a todo list shouldn't be taken as "absolute need" but it's still needed.
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Muz
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« Reply #35 on: January 30, 2013, 04:31:30 PM » |
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Todo lists are kind of a skill/art in itself. Heck, there are best selling books dedicated entirely to maintaining todo lists, and some todo apps get millions of dollars of financial support. Actually, I'll go and write an article on this. A properly managed to do list will tell you how much progress you've made throughout a time period. Ideally, you'll have a lot of different lists for different components, like what Dwarf Fortress does in addition to a devlog. While I think Toady does too many "partially done" bits, it gives a good vision of progress. I'd say one of the biggest dangers of leading an experienced indie team is that the leader might be considered an 'idea guy' and not a proper project manager. A todo list lets the team members know that the project has an actual development plan, instead of being a bunch of unimplementable fantasies. It lets people know that the project is in control. Sometimes I feel that I've been lacking progress throughout the last week, and the archives of the to do list actually tell me how much of the goals I've accomplished.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #36 on: January 30, 2013, 07:22:26 PM » |
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i remember there was once a study of successful people vs unsuccessful, and they found that the number one difference between them (even more important than what social-economic status they were born into, or how much education they had, or IQ) was whether they make to do lists or not
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J-Snake
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« Reply #37 on: January 30, 2013, 07:34:21 PM » |
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merely by writing something down, it causes you to think about it, to reflect on it, to examine yourself. I guess it is a subjective individual psychological thing, may be some need a devlog for it. I think there are more important things and ways to care about. As long as it is additional it might not hurt as long as you have fun doing so. I understand the team-aspect of this. May be I can put it that way. To me writing a devlog of that kind is a passive happening just like driving taxi. On the other hand tracking things and insights you find on your way is like driving yourself. That is how you get to know everything.
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« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 07:43:53 PM by J-Snake »
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Number
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« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2013, 03:59:11 AM » |
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Wow, this is very interesting. I wonder how much it applies to things beyond making games.
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Panurge
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« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2013, 05:06:17 AM » |
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i remember there was once a study of successful people vs unsuccessful, and they found that the number one difference between them (even more important than what social-economic status they were born into, or how much education they had, or IQ) was whether they make to do lists or not
That's interesting. I wonder if the study asked people to make to do lists or if they looked at the difference between those who already do and don't? If the latter, then it might not be the lists themselves that make the difference but rather the underlying nature of the person, that they are the type who is generally organised and so more likely to make a list. I've just made a quick list myself and it's dispiritingly long...
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