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1038292 Posts in 41958 Topics- by 33583 Members - Latest Member: galangs

September 02, 2014, 10:58:32 AM
TIGSource ForumsPlayerGamesRealistic Espionage Games?
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Graham-
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« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2013, 09:46:20 PM »

mm... "realism" refers to the kind of feeling play gives you. ... it's like if I say "fun, I want a fun game," that suggest nothing about scale. ... often devs think realism means everything has to be realistic, but I think this is just a confusion about what is necessary to give something a realistic feel. every game is just a subset of some larger thing. scale and experience are separate ideas.

if realism meant wholly realistic than the only real game would be life itself, nullifying the point of the term. so obviously this isn't the case.
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J-Snake
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« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2013, 10:24:36 PM »

A computer model is the more realistic the more it corresponds to empiric results.
Just assuming the right feel isn't very scientific.
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« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2013, 10:34:59 PM »

you're missing the point. "how" the experience is created is a separate question. any simulation is a subset of reality.

also, "feel" is what games are about. science will give you one feel. you don't get to shortcut the design process by simulating accurately.
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J-Snake
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« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2013, 12:23:11 PM »

"feel" is what games are about.
That and playability is why I suggest a game in the first place, and not a realistic simulation.
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« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2013, 12:32:56 PM »

mincing words. "realism" is a descriptive word. "simulation" is your word.

you keep trying to say realism requires some huge scale, or some kind of simulation. it does not. it just means that it feels real. Mario: not real. Forza: more real. Bushido Blade: semi-real.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 12:38:31 PM by Graham. » Logged
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« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2013, 12:57:04 PM »

Octodad.
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« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2013, 12:58:34 PM »

Usually I think if someone demands realistic espionage or a realistic driving simulator, these are the common words to choose. How do you know everyone is just for the feel only because you are?
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« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2013, 01:20:58 PM »

dude. relax. feel is the experience. that's all there is. simulation is just one tool in the creation of feel.

beyond that, the degree of simulation is a separate issue from the quality. I can make a game that realistically approximates a single aspect of reality, just 1, and that is no less realistic than a game that approximates 2. scale and quality of simulation are different ideas.

I am not dissing simulation. you can simulate up your ass if you want to. I am saying that:
  1. realism does not require simulation
  2. simulation does not require massive scale

There are certain kinds of realism that do require simulation, but from the two things Orz has said, neither you or I know if the kind of realism he has in mind does. ... You are saying that a realistic espionage game requires both simulation and one of a large scale, therefore realism isn't a good priority. That's narrow minded. You are assuming all sorts of things about how realism must be created. I am saying there are many options. See the irony?

edit: I should say that by "feel" I mean all that the player experiences. that may have been misleading.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 01:45:15 PM by Graham. » Logged
J-Snake
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« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2013, 06:25:14 PM »

You are saying that a realistic espionage game requires both simulation and one of a large scale, therefore realism isn't a good priority.
No, my first mention was that realistic espionage simulation probably wouldn't be that enjoyable in the first place.
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« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2013, 07:01:50 PM »

Why not? You just have to find the joy. Real espionage must have _something_ exciting about it.

I imagine, at least in my own head, that the player has to constantly cover how he really feels, and not let little clues slip up, that might cause trouble for him later, hold his breath as he gets close to a dangerous topic. You are killed by conversation. But this takes us down the dynamic conversation path, which is always my path. ... I'm sure you can simulate it visually though. I'm sure.

---

Ok. So there's a group of people doing something. Everyone has loyalties. All these people and their "conversation" is expressed through motion. So you're in this 3d world, and everyone is going around doing things in patterns. One guy shows support for another, but it's slightly racist, and that suits his character, and that's shown visually.... Maybe each kind of action requires moving over to certain objects and gesturing, or doing something mechanically challenging. Like being racist requires solving an obvious puzzle in a time limit or something.

Then the player has to study the tone of the room and drive it in the right direction, to get the information he needs, or establish the kind of social status he needs, to get in good with one project and so on. ... He has to keep a careful study of the nuances of everyone's behaviour, the way a Bayonetta player studies the motions of the monsters. Then he has to react in a way that suits it. If he rides the line too closely the risk of his "cover being blown" increases. This could work.

The design is very hard for a while, but once you crack some tough nuts the gold will flow.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 07:16:48 PM by Graham. » Logged
J-Snake
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« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2013, 08:35:09 PM »

Why not?
I fear giving the simulated guards a realistic field of view and perception will make the game already unplayable. It means only specialized agent-friendly settings could make up for it, that's the bottleneck.
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Graham-
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« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2013, 08:58:25 PM »

that's such an arbitrary restriction.
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« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2013, 10:08:23 PM »

Not human spy like, but getting the cover blown was still as annoying, Hacker II: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_II:_The_Doomsday_Papers

Remote control a robot in an enemy security facility. You've got four monitors, but also the facility guards. Overlay signals to hide your robot in rooms and avoid getting caught.
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Squid Party
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« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2013, 10:09:34 AM »

Octodad.
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« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2013, 01:13:54 PM »

Covert Action, Sid Meier's DOS espionage game sounds up your alley.
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