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[Superb Joe]

http://www.animenation.net/forums/blog.php?b=330

I think this guy put it better than I did.

it takes an anime nation of millions to hold usa back

[Derek]

and turn-based strategy games have progressed in Japan to the point where they're almost unintelligible to most people

don't agree with this. "western" tbs games are more complex.

Yeah, but they're probably more complex because of an anal amount of realistic detail, right? As opposed to having abstract game mechanics (maybe even taken from other genres, in the case of some Japanese TBS games).

[Türbo Bröther]

Show me a Japanese developed FPS worth anyone's time though.

Virtua Cop 2.

[Sharkoss]

The best shmups come from the east.

The best action games come from the East period. They always have been better than us at that, imho. (Probably a result of their history of developing games for the arcade while we were developing games for the PC)

As far as indies go, Noitu Love 2 is better than any Japanese entries in its genre (that I played - recs please).  It's obviously heavily inspired by Japanese 2D action games, of course.

[VDZ]

The best shmups come from the east.

The best action games come from the East period. They always have been better than us at that, imho.

Show me a Japanese developed FPS worth anyone's time though.

Aside from the obvious light gun games genre (which I don't think really counts as FPS), there's games like the Metroid Prime series, which I personally haven't tried but are critically acclaimed.

and turn-based strategy games have progressed in Japan to the point where they're almost unintelligible to most people

don't agree with this. "western" tbs games are more complex.

Yeah, but they're probably more complex because of an anal amount of realistic detail, right? As opposed to having abstract game mechanics (maybe even taken from other genres, in the case of some Japanese TBS games).

You're used to only the TBS games more popular in the West, like Advance Wars. Games like Daisenryaku and Nectaris (Military Madness) also have things like a variety of different tank models with minor differences, sometimes based on real models. Some of the mechanics (such as Nectaris's brilliant support and surround mechanics) also have a much more direct link to the real situation (example: attack a unit from both sides and they will take more losses).

[Strife]

It seems like Japanese developers are generally better at thinking creatively about mechanics... they take that extra step when thinking about what will make an action game enjoyable.

I got this vibe during the late 90's when Sega was still a major player in the console market. Heck, Japan was practically introducing the rest of the world to console gaming at this time. Meanwhile the US was doing its own in thing in the PC market until we eventually made our mark on consoles as well.

Nowadays, I think it's something of a mix. US developers do tend to put thought into the mechanics of their games, but they also try to fit them into the most popular genres like FPS and third-person action adventures, whereas Japan is perfectly content with 2D games being mainstream. Some Japanese developers, like those behind Sonic and Metroid, are going that extra mile to make sure their games appeal to a Western audience. And I guess I'm kinda doing the opposite with Freedom Planet where I'm a Western developer making something that would appeal to an Eastern audience. xD


But I digress. One notable Japanese indie game I played recently was Bunny Must Die. It's as hard as it sounds, mostly due to the clunky controls, but it's still a fun and adorable jab at the Metroidvania genre with great sprite graphics to boot.

[Schoq]

The best shmups come from the east.

The best action games come from the East period. They always have been better than us at that, imho.

Show me a Japanese developed FPS worth anyone's time though.

Aside from the obvious light gun games genre (which I don't think really counts as FPS), there's games like the Metroid Prime series, which I personally haven't tried but are critically acclaimed.

The Metroid Primes were developed in Texas.
And yeah, light gun is an entirely different genre.

[Türbo Bröther]

And yeah, light gun is an entirely different genre.

You are shooting at things from a first person perspective. Therefore they are first person shooters.

[Schoq]

It's also an RPG, adventure game, fighting game and a shmup, since you're playing the role of someone on an adventure, fighting people by shooting them up!

Let's argue game genres, I'll fight you to the death

[ithamore]

I was going to just share a link to Astroport, a doujin group that develops a variety of shmps and with 3punge roots.

However, their Gradius-like, Satazius, had a link to the American publishers, nyu Media, who have been helping to get doujin games on Steam and other digital distributors. nyu Media sells the games from their site in addition to trying to get them on different distributors, and they tend to lean toward the doujin style of Japanese indie games. They've also even begun to add reviews of games besides there own as features in their news feed.

[Tuba]

Extra-Credits has a nice video about how guns are portrayed differently in american and japanese games: http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/the-myth-of-the-gun

Relevant to the debate, I think.

And keep mentioning worthy japanese indie games, I don't know many aside from the ones from Nigoro and Nekogames

[ink.inc]

ikkiki, pixel

[flowerthief]

The Extra Credit guys have also argued that genres should be defined not by mechanics ("it's got a first-person camera and you shoot things, therefore it's a first-person-shooter") but by what the player gets out of the experience. (competiton, satisfaction of overcoming a challenge, a cinematic experience, etc)

Japanese eschew the first person camera for reasons given in the article Derek linked. Anyway, imho first person shooting works better when it's on-rails (Virtua Cop, House of the Dead) than it does when the player is expected to navigate a character he can't even see. Their efforts to find other ways of delivering action shooters, including 3D actions shooters, makes me appreciate the Japanese more, not less.

And Bunny Must Die was great. The Japanese own metroidvanias, arguably. They own shmups. They own fighting games. (for the latter, does anyone else even come close?)

[Türbo Bröther]

It's also an RPG, adventure game, fighting game and a shmup, since you're playing the role of someone on an adventure, fighting people by shooting them up!

Let's argue game genres, I'll fight you to the death

Well, first person shooter isn't really a genre it's a summary of the POV that the action takes place from prefixed to the actual genre.

[Schoq]

Japanese eschew the first person camera for reasons given in the article Derek linked. Anyway, imho first person shooting works better when it's on-rails (Virtua Cop, House of the Dead) than it does when the player is expected to navigate a character he can't even see. Their efforts to find other ways of delivering action shooters, including 3D actions shooters, makes me appreciate the Japanese more, not less.

In case you didn't realize it yourself you changed your position from "The best action games come from the East period." to "I don't like action games from the West period."

[ithamore]

I'd first like to share another publisher of doujin, Rice. This UK group also does quite a bit of news and reviews.

Second, sometimes I like Japanese Indie Games for their quirkiness.



Uwabami Breakers

It's a freeware Touhou shmp with a bar theme. You run up a tab instead of a score for shooting food and drinks that shot back. You have a beer gauge that increases the power of your chopstick shots up to 3 levels. And then there is the back-story, provide by Touhou Wiki:

A twilight bar-room.
A heaven on earth where even the lowest of drunkards sleeps peacefully.
This was the home of a group of master bartenders who boasted they could send even the heaviest of drinkers under the table.
These bartenders, called the "Uwabami Breakers" (or "Drunkard Breakers") devoted their every waking hour to devising new menus every day.
Many brave men had fallen to their menus.
Even though the wasted drunks were afflicted with the worst of hangovers every day, they couldn't resist the masters' stimulating new menus.
That was just as the masters had planned.
Nobody dreamed of defying the "Uwabami Breakers" in this bar.

Except for one certain drunk.

[VDZ]

I'd first like to share another publisher of doujin, Rice. This UK group also does quite a bit of news and reviews.

They only sell Nyu Media's games (and host Warning Forever and Rayhound).

Speaking of Western doujin publishers, I don't think anybody's mentioned Fruitbat Factory yet. I haven't checked out their games yet, but I guess they're at least worth keeping an eye on if you're interested in this kind of stuff.

They own shmups. They own fighting games. (for the latter, does anyone else even come close?)

I'd say One Must Fall 2097 was on even ground with the other fighting games of its time. There was also Mortal Kombat, but it's always had some issues, mainly a horrible balance and ridiculous AI. For modern fighting games, I can't even think of any non-Japanese 1v1 fighting games after 2000 except for the new Mortal Kombats (not counting crappy flash games).

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

from derek's article-link i especially liked this passage:

"You know the drill when starting a JRPG: read an F.A.Q. to discover what seemingly innocuous tasks you must perform throughout the game in order to get certain rewards and/or "The Good Ending" (Suikoden 2 anyone? Tales of Symphonia?). Japanese games want you to master their fictional worlds on their terms, rather than take control of it and creatively subvert it with your individualistic ego."

i think part of that is because (stereotype/generalization) the japanese culture sees people as random pawns in the hands of fate, whereas in the west we are told that we make the big decisions and our lives depend on our own decisions. consequently, in western rpgs, the ending is determined by choices in dialogue trees. in japanese rpgs, the ending is determined by some obscure stuff that is usually pretty random and non-obvious, like not killing any of your party members in disgaea, or whether or not you collect 108 characters in suikoden

[ithamore]

from derek's article-link i especially liked this passage:

"You know the drill when starting a JRPG: read an F.A.Q. to discover what seemingly innocuous tasks you must perform throughout the game in order to get certain rewards and/or "The Good Ending" (Suikoden 2 anyone? Tales of Symphonia?). Japanese games want you to master their fictional worlds on their terms, rather than take control of it and creatively subvert it with your individualistic ego."

i think part of that is because (stereotype/generalization) the japanese culture sees people as random pawns in the hands of fate, whereas in the west we are told that we make the big decisions and our lives depend on our own decisions. consequently, in western rpgs, the ending is determined by choices in dialogue trees. in japanese rpgs, the ending is determined by some obscure stuff that is usually pretty random and non-obvious, like not killing any of your party members in disgaea, or whether or not you collect 108 characters in suikoden

If I want the good ending, there is Youtube. I just want to play the game, and I'm getting old, lazy, and trying to be more efficient with my time.

Also, I always saw the "seemingly innocuous tasks" as an attempt to immerse the player in another culture (fictitious or not).

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

most of the games i played (maybe 90%) i played before youtube existed (and before gamefaqs existed for that matter) -- so i still feel it's cheating to go and look up how to get a secret ending, let alone to watch it on youtube