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TIGSource ForumsCommunityDevLogsTIGS Coop. Game Dev, Now 50% More Roguelike-ish!
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Author Topic: TIGS Coop. Game Dev, Now 50% More Roguelike-ish!  (Read 12822 times)
jctwood
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« Reply #60 on: March 01, 2013, 08:54:44 AM »

I think we need to deduce what sort of pace the game will have. Obviously if there is a long unravelling story through multiple time spaces the pace could be slower. This could allow us to remove a restrictive class system and in place use a sort of background system where you choose how your character is built but any initial character can take any form whilst moving through the game. So say I was desperate to be a rogue I could choose the stealthy character but later on could adapt to become the ultimate knight. If the pace is faster and there is permadeath, a class system would help speed up the gameplay for sure.
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« Reply #61 on: March 02, 2013, 06:38:43 AM »

Last time on #tigCOOP:

Quote from: IRC
vortexcortex: I've got the procedural noise functions working in JS now, so we need to decide on a number of settings to use with it.
Stimor: coor
vortexcortex: I'm thinking 3/4
vortexcortex: or... 4 settings, but one is the realm of the dead or Etherial planes and exist in conjunction with the others...
vortexcortex: ... but can only be seen if, blah.
vortexcortex: So, essentially, folks need to decide on the actual main settings that will be used.
vortexcortex: I think some form of futurisitic and ancient magics themes are a given.
vortexcortex: If the land of the dead is another dimention or the Elysium (sp) field, etc. is up for interpretation.
vortexcortex: IMO, that leaves specifics of the futuristic part, and one more theme:  I suggested present day/not to distant future.

Folks, we need to at least solidify the base settings / themes.  That way folks can know what world(s) they're writing for and creating pixel art in.
These are the main base themes I'm talking about, not the strange patched on additions like an Egypt ruled by Cats:

Quote from: #tigCOOP IRC
vortexcortex: IMO, that leaves specifics of the futuristic part, and one more theme:  I suggested present day/not to distant future.
Stimor: cats in egypt.
Stimor: theme set
vortexcortex: I like it.
Stimor: surprisingly low amount of games about cats in egypt
vortexcortex: Egypt instead of present day.
Stimor: which is a logical setting and character
vortexcortex: Perhaps the Cats rule Egypt, and all that other stuff we know was merely disinformation so we would continue to provide them free food... like willing slaves.
Stimor: ya
Stimor: history is written by the winners
Stimor: history is written by cats.
Stimor: all of it.
vortexcortex: That explains Nyan Cat.
vortexcortex: And the Internet in general.
vortexcortex: We built it, they use it to send secret cat-encoded messages the world over.
Stimor: yes
Stimor: catuminati
Stimor: familiar logo with a cats eye

^-- That's a great example of a theme that could be patched-in / added-on over part of the main world.  I'd like to go there someday -- If I'm not already there...

For the base worlds however we need settings that are a bit more flexible, that can contain non-cat-centric plot lines, for example. Smiley

I think 3 or 4 distinct base settings will be plenty of variety.

As it stands we've got on the table:
  • Medieval / Ancient Magics
    Your typical warriors, wizards, goblins and what-not.
  • Not to distant future
    (relative to today - Imagine yourself in 20 years?)
  • Post Singularity
    Post (human) Apocalypse the Cyborgs and Machine races live on.
  • Alternate Demention
    The alternate planes of existence rolled into one.
    This setting is special because it exists parallel to all the other planes, and can only be seen when [the writers figure that out].

    AKA: Land of the Dead, the Nether realms, the Ethereal Plane, ect.  Ghosts, Elder gods, cosmic intelligences are found here.
    IMO, It's basically the same as folks in the dimensional gateway that opens if you're using an original IBM model M w/ Dvorak and press [Ctr] + [Alt] + [Shift] + [Space]... Be warned, you can never ever [Return].
Regardless of if these worlds turn out to be islands (as was suggested) or forking outwards from a central wizard tower hub, mixed and matched via procedural world generator, etc, we need to have at least the base settings solid before further work can progress.

So, unless there's objectors to the above main world settings, then those will be the base world sets we'll go with.
Variations like a magic Realm of Fire, Atlantis, a crashed bunch of aliens from Andromeda, StarGate:Feline Force, etc. can be bolted on afterwards.

Quote from: #tigCOOP IRC
Bluesnake4: I really like the idea of the ethereal planes vortex!
Bluesnake4: it could be a hub where you go when you die ( an easy way to include permadeathish mechanic ) but it is filled with other lost souls and you can trade, talk...
...
vortexcortex: Yeah, I was thinking we could even put some hard quests in the deep dangerous parts, like reset C'thulhu's alarm clock or something.
Bluesnake4: hehe
Bluesnake4: yeah that sounds cool!

I think we're still undecided as to how death works.  I mean, I love the save-stones idea for saving the game / re-spawning.  But leading up to that re-birth there could be a couple failure modes.
E.g.: Reach Zero health and stave off the Grim Reaper by killing a nearby enemy comparable to your exp. level (he takes their soul instead).

Or, perhaps you're transported to the ethereal planes when you die -- The save stone could be a part of the Ethereal plane, and you're linked to the save stone, so when you die, you appear near your save stone in the etherial plane.
Since it could exist in unison with the other realms, it would be easy to switch back to the 'real' world... or something.  Any ideas on how that's achieved.  I think a WOW like spirit healer is too much of a time-sink, so any other options?

Everything is open to suggestion.  What do you think?

Quote from: #tigCOOP IRC
vortexcortex: I actually have a funny idea about sprite sizes... We should totally agree on a [base] tile size / resolution.
Bluesnake4: okay, yeah I agree
vortexcortex: However, I can scale the tiles to fit together so that folks can drop their 12x12 tiles into the world if we have 16x16 and it'll just work.
Bluesnake4: small sprites would be the easiest to fire out and would probably mak eit easier to combine themes since there would be little tweaking needed on such a small scale?
Bluesnake4: okay great so 16x16? if i wanted to start making some random ones?
vortexcortex: Yeah, I think 16x16 is perfect actually, since we have those ones from Derek to use as placeholders and that other awesome tileset too.
Bluesnake4: okay great!

In the sprite / tile code I've got going the world has its own cell size on screen, and folks can zoom in / out.  So, we'll be able to blow up the smaller res tiles to see their sweet pixelated goodness.

Larger sprites / tiles can also be used, but down-sampling will make thinks look funky.
The upshot is that you could mix tile set sizes.  So, say the world grid is set to be 48x48 px per tile.  That means the 16x16 tiles get 3 pixels for each 1 pixel of the tile image (3x zoom).
If you load up a 12x12 tileset it gets 4 pixels for each single pixel (4x zoom) or if you're crazy and use a 6x6 tile set, then 8x zoom = 48 scaled.

The user We will be able to set the world scale.  So, they could set their view of the world to be 64x64 px per tile and all the tiles will get scaled to that size.  I use image caching code to speed up rendering, so tons of scaling ops aren't done each frame.

What's interesting is that the 12x12 tileset will work with the 16x16 tile set, or 24x24, whatever.  The tiled sections won't match up perfectly between 12 and 16 width tiles, but once you're in 12x12 or 16x16, etc. area it'll all look fine and smoothly tiled.
Also, we can select between smooth or pixel-art zoom on a per tile-set basis.  Eg: you might want to enable blurry resize when going from, 64x64 down to 48x48.

All that said, what should the "optimal" base tile size be?  I was thinking 16x16.  Any thoughts?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 08:03:59 AM by VortexCortex » Logged

jctwood
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« Reply #62 on: March 03, 2013, 09:35:24 AM »

16x16 please
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VortexCortex
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« Reply #63 on: March 03, 2013, 01:33:09 PM »

16x16 please

Yeah, I think that's probably a good bet.  And since you've already contributed some cool tiles, I think we should standardize on that.

For the game scale, I'm thinking 48x48 will be the on-screen size, AKA 16x16 @ 3x zoom.  The reason to use 48 instead of 64 or 32 is to include a 3 in the prime factorization.  32 = 25, 64 = 26 which means nothing with a 3 as a prime factor will scale evenly, like 12 or 24.

Here's an example of what that 48x48 size looks like, using a few of Desiderata's tiles:


This ethereal temple/ruin like set has an almost classic Gameboy feel to it.  Looks like somewhere you might visit when you're dead if you ask me...

__________________________

Which brings me to an idea I had about the save stones / death thing.

I was trying to figure out the mechanism by which players could visit the parallel nether realms that co-exist with the current places on the map.  Being a 'well that's obvious' kind of guy, why not just make player death be the prime way you get to explore the nether realms?

So, here's a scenario graph for a player's brush with Death:

  • You've placed your save stone at the entry way to some ruins; The ethereal stone's energies anchor your soul and bind it to the stone's resting place in both worlds.
  • While exploring said ruins your life force has just fallen to Zero health units.
  • The Grim Reaper now approaches from the edge of the screen.
  • You avoid the Grim Reaper as he approaches, but he's faster than you, always (by some percentage).
  • You find and attack an enemy that's about the same level as you are, perhaps the one that injured you.
  • Your health may go negative at this point which makes it harder for you to move the further your foot is in the grave, so to speak; Death is catching up to you.
     
    • You manage to kill the creature or foe before the Grim Reaper strikes you with his scythe.
    • The Harvester of Souls rushes to the fresh corpse and whisks the poor dead soul from the scene.
    • As a parting gift for helping further Death's cause, your life is replenished up to 1 health point again; Cue the pixelated particle effects.
    • Congratulations, you're not dead!  Now, get to a healer, medic, or mechanic quick!
    -OR-
     
    • You fail to appease the Dark Specter and it reaps your soul with a large scythe.
    • The Pale Cloaked one has now escorted you to the nether realm of the current area.
    • Death screams in dismay as your soul is snapped back to the location of the save stone.
    • You now stand in the place where you set the saved stone, but are in an alternate spirit plane.
    • The once inert save stone now glimmers brightly next to you, and Death quickly leaps at you.
    • Instead of your soul the Reaper is drawn to the other brighter soul that had been trapped in the dark save stone, and takes it away deep into the lands of the dead.
    • In parting death begrudgingly upholds his bargain and your life is replenished up to 1 health point.
       
    • Congratulations, You're in the Spirit world!
       
      • If you pickup the save stone the last of its magic binding will be activated and you'll return to the realms of the living where you last dropped the stone.  It will become a worthless black rock.
      -OR-
       
      • You could instead explore the nether realm now, but apart from the protective wards of the shrines and temples of the gods the nether realm is a dangerous place.
         
      • Here the chaotic forces of the aether run rampant, and if you stay too long you may be obliterated out-right.
      • If you have any more save stones, you can drop one here, and venture forth into the land of the dead.  Picking up a save stone anywhere you've dropped it, takes you back to the realm of the living and frees the spirit within / uses up the stone.
      • If there were any un-harvested save stones dropped in your journey then you'll be recalled to the most recently dropped stone that hasn't been used up if you encounter Death again.
         
This reveals a darkness of the Save Stones -- They're not just a magical world-anchor they've also got a soul trapped inside to appease Death!  Those of good conscience may believe that spirit walkers collect lost souls and bind them in the save stones, and the grim reaping is a final peace for them.  Others who dabble in the economics of life tell rumors of the stones' crafting involving dark blood rituals and human sacrifices as a much cheaper source of souls.

Furthermore, this allows us to keep an aspect of the permanent death mechanic that's a defining mechanic of roguelikes.   If death takes you and you don't have an active save stone somewhere in the world, then it's game over -- Permadeath.

There should probably also be other less traumatic entry ways into the spirit realm, perhaps at a temple or shrine or by way of some arcane magic or a high tech hyper-dimensional-flux projection gate...

We'll have to tweak this mechanic some more once we play with it in-game, I'm sure.  For instance: Say you just hold onto a save stone until Death comes, then drop one.  You can be re-born right there in the same location you almost died at, but you'll have used up a save stone, like a credit in an arcade game of old, and still be left with one health.   Would a potion stave off death once you've been to zero health and negative beyond?  I'm thinking no.  It would bring you back to Zero, prolonging your escape from death, but would not be enough to pay the price of Death.

It'll be pretty simple to make the player's avatar white washed or make it semi-transparent, etc. if we want to ensure they know they're in the land of the dead.  We'll have to play around with the effects to see what's possible / preferable.

One sticky subject I encountered here is: Do Robots have Souls?  The short answer is: Yes, Of Course!
What is a human but a sack of meat filled mostly with water?  It's the electrochemical reaction that is ended when a life's spark has gone out.  Everything in our game's worlds has both a physical and ethereal form.  The body of a man or machine is of no consequence.  In a machine life is a purely electrical phenomenon, ah but what are chemicals but matter?  Is silicon not a chemical?  The sentient Robotic Races are no different to Humans when regarded by the Grim Reaper.  They are both electrochemical reactions made of the same basic matter and energy that permeates the aether -- the stuff souls are made of (the exact composition of a soul is left as an exercise to the reader).

Any thoughts / Suggestions?

______


Finally: I'm just about ready to begin testing the collaborative asset storage / retrieval system.  It'll be just text initially while I get the graphics code underway, but I figure we can use it like a 2D wiki to further organize the writing and design.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2013, 02:50:21 PM by VortexCortex » Logged

Quarry
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« Reply #64 on: March 03, 2013, 01:35:24 PM »

Lacks contrast
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jctwood
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« Reply #65 on: March 03, 2013, 01:48:34 PM »

Thanks for the feedback quarry! I realise it is extremely low contrast but I though the slightly green-tinged marble of the spirit world would be ambiguous and low contrast. Please feel free to tweak it! Would be really great to see your take on it.

« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 12:13:03 PM by Desiderata » Logged

Quarry
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« Reply #66 on: March 03, 2013, 01:50:26 PM »

I see that it should give a spiritual vibe but maybe dividing walls from floors could do great (like 1 px darker border)

Also you wouldn't want me to have a take on that, I really suck at creating anything art related!
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jctwood
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« Reply #67 on: March 03, 2013, 01:52:08 PM »

And another
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 12:11:41 PM by Desiderata » Logged

jctwood
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« Reply #68 on: March 03, 2013, 01:55:58 PM »

Yeah in the tileset there are two walls one is low contrast to make it appear that the area is raised and a high contrast darker bottomed wall to make the room seem sunken. Sorry if i didn't make it obvious but obviously you need the context of multiple rooms to see it also my first ever tileset. Ever.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 12:12:28 PM by Desiderata » Logged

jctwood
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« Reply #69 on: March 03, 2013, 01:59:00 PM »

But yeah vortex that idea sounds perfect! And maybe the way the temples allow you to enter the spirit world is by either (for evil cultist temples) making a blood sacrifice or (for holy sanctuaries) performing some sort of prayer which drains mana whereas as blood sacrifice drains health.
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VortexCortex
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« Reply #70 on: March 05, 2013, 11:50:09 AM »

I'm working on getting the UI up to speed so it can talk to all the back-end work I've done.

To help me out I've added a console that can be used to control everything in the game.



Why, you could even create whole new games within the console alone...



...If only you could fit something like a tetromino game in a single line of JavaScript code.  Tongue

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« Reply #71 on: March 05, 2013, 11:53:34 AM »

Here's an example of what that 48x48 size looks like, using a few of Desiderata's tiles:

This isn't the full game screen is it? It looks mighty small if it is. But anyway it's good to see this is all still churning onwards.  Hand Thumbs Up Right
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« Reply #72 on: March 05, 2013, 12:07:14 PM »

VortexCortex: nice work!
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poe
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« Reply #73 on: March 05, 2013, 12:32:36 PM »

I think that's not the game Caiys?
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jctwood
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« Reply #74 on: March 05, 2013, 01:21:59 PM »

Poe is right Caiys that is just a quick room deadlycure made with my tileset and vortexcortex used it as an example for tile sizes more than anything. The UI is looking amazing though Vortex! Certainly has all the customisation we could want.
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poe
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« Reply #75 on: March 05, 2013, 01:38:36 PM »

Shit.

I like your tiles Desierata, they remind me of GBC games a lot.
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jctwood
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« Reply #76 on: March 05, 2013, 01:55:22 PM »

Sorry caiys. Thanks Poe it's my first attempt at a tileset and my first pixel art in a while. I'm thinking the gbc colours could be used for the spirit world. After playing Anodyne I guess I associate the bland colour theme with a  sort of soul world, could be an interesting palette to use. Especially if the player visits it frequently. Will probably invoke a sort of nostalgia which would make sense if you have lived through multiple lives. The soul world wouldn't be something you remember clearly more something you have a strange attachement to. Anyway i'm rambling.
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VortexCortex
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« Reply #77 on: March 05, 2013, 02:36:34 PM »

The soul world wouldn't be something you remember clearly more something you have a strange attachement to.

Ah, so it's the 80's then...

The gods will have large billowing hair and androgynous forms beneath their leathered, zippered and leopard-printed exteriors.
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jctwood
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« Reply #78 on: March 05, 2013, 11:21:31 PM »

For sure yeah, anyway I'm just hypothesising about what I see it being the game is a Coop so we all need to make the decision!
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« Reply #79 on: March 06, 2013, 12:43:37 AM »

Remind me, cause I've forgotten. Are we randomly generating areas, or will they be placed down? I prefer random generation, cause you know. Procedural generation. The words alone sound sexy to my ears.  Kiss
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