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November 22, 2014, 11:16:06 PM
TIGSource ForumsFeedbackDevLogsTIGS Coop. Game Dev, Now 50% More Roguelike-ish!
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Author Topic: TIGS Coop. Game Dev, Now 50% More Roguelike-ish!  (Read 6890 times)
theweirdn8
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« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2013, 05:52:56 PM »

Will this game have a story or simply we make it up in our head as we play?
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« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2013, 09:13:02 PM »

I'd advocate making any of the code open source, regardless of language used.  Mason Engine will be fully open source.  JavaScript is open source by design: Right Click -> View Source.

Java development has no benefit over using SDL/SFML with C/C++.  It's trivial to have one native source tree that compiles on all the same platforms that Java runs on.  In fact, I use a Java Stub to load my native C code for some Android development...  Testing on each platform must still be done because Java is not "write once run everywhere", it's become more like: Write once, Debug Everywhere -- This is no different to C or C++ in that regard; However, there are much better real time debugging solutions for native C/C++, IMO.

I'm not against developing in Java, I just fail to see the point.  It has all of the drawbacks of C/C++ with none of the performance.

I guess you should be updating your opinions on how Java is
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« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2013, 10:16:44 PM »

Will this game have a story or simply we make it up in our head as we play?

Probably make one up. If we have a proper story, then it'll be hard to mod stuff, without making it look weird.
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« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2013, 11:59:38 PM »

I guess you should be updating your opinions on how Java is

I develop in Java on a weekly basis.  I know how it is.  It's crap.  JIT compilation means we're compiling our code to machine code each time we run the program.  What's the point?  That defeats the security benefit of a VM.  Perhaps you should update your opinion on the state of cross platform native application deployment.  Use C/C++, compile once, test once, DON'T worry about an upgrade to the VM platform breaking your code.
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« Reply #44 on: February 26, 2013, 12:39:43 AM »

Anyways.. away from the platform war...  (Actually, we should have a platform war thread.)

The basic concept for our game so far is that it is a world that just has different areas with different themes, am I correct or not?
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« Reply #45 on: February 26, 2013, 05:29:58 AM »

Anyways.. away from the platform war...  (Actually, we should have a platform war thread.)
The platform war is over.  Cross platform engines with an open documented game data format won.

If anyone wants to implement the game in any language other than HTM5, go for it.   The game isn't done being designed yet so it would be hard to really complete that effort at the moment -- I'm making preparations for when that time does come by building an open source HTML5 engine, which I hope can be used for this project.

I've made provisions so that any code I write can be fully compatible with implementations of the code in Java or native C/C++.  For instance, I created my own Rand() function in JS+HTML5 that works exactly the same as GNU Rand() does in GLIBC (C/C++ library), and it will be trivial to create a Rand() function in Java that's compatible.  This function will be used to do dice-roll like stat stuff and other randomization that doesn't need to be tile-able.

The procedural world generation relies on a specific tile-able noise algorithm that's more expensive than the Rand() function I created.  I've already implemented a C and Java version of the perlin-like noise function; I'm in the process of optimizing it for JavaScript.  So, you see, anywhere that the games need to have compatible code I've ALREADY done the work to make sure that Native vs Java vs HTML5 wars are completely and utterly a pointless waste of all time.

I'd rather not have mentioned this, but I think it's useful to quell any further retardation of progress due to futile language wars.  I apologize for my contribution to said skirmish.  It was uncalled for and unprofessional.  I'll keep engine related discussion in a different thread when I'm ready to publish and discuss some code, and use this thread for game design discussion.

To be perfectly clear, one last time before I fall silent on this issue:  Platform wars are over.  I have no problem with folks working on Java code, or other native code, but I myself can't justify spending time on these since I need an HTML5 engine myself.  I'm making allowances for the possibility that someone may some day create a native or VM (Java/C#) version and wish to export a save games & patches from HTML5 and load it in an alternate version of the engine.  If there is demand, then after the HTML5 version is complete I'll work on porting the engine to C, but HTML5 will come first -- Unless some other coder takes the initiative to implement the game design.  In this case I would recommend that at least the data formats be published and preferably the code be open source so that I can create a HTML5 implementation too (I think it has the highest chance of being the most collaborative).

Quote
The basic concept for our game so far is that it is a world that just has different areas with different themes, am I correct or not?

I'd like that.  If that's what you want too, then I'm happy.  I'll add that to the list:

  • There will be different areas of the game with different time periods or overall settings: Eg: Futuristic vs Ancient Magical Kingdom
    (we're still deciding which settings).

Do you have any opinion as to which settings to use?

Will this game have a story or simply we make it up in our head as we play?

Probably make one up. If we have a proper story, then it'll be hard to mod stuff, without making it look weird.

This issue is unresolved.  I proposed a back-story for the settings that I prefer, and I think writing could be really fun and easy.  If it's done in a non-linear way.  Being a bit weird is the point of games, IMO, otherwise it would just be real life v2.0.   Perhaps we should define what type of stories lend themselves to rogue-likes.

I think a strong narrative with linear story would be too hard to do, like you said, it would be too hard to mod without breaking the story.  However, smaller quest sized arcs that weave a common tale in non-linear ways could be used instead.

See my post in the "why write for games" thread for my thoughts on doing just that type of writing.

The TL;DR version is that we can come up with overarching main story (or overall set of events and end-game state: preferably where you still get to explore the world), and even have main events scripted in, but allow the players to find their own paths between these events.  The plot filled parts will have to be manually created, of course; Randomized story telling would be a lot of coding work, and IMO, diminish the importance of contributions to populate the world.

It's up for discussion, so what do you folks think?  Arcs that span a few quests to reveal some story (non linear narrative), No story, just a world where you kill the same sets of randomly appearing monsters a bazillion times, or strong narrative arc (A sole story the character must progress ala JRPGs like FF series)?

I vote: Overarching generalized plot with non-linear narrative sprinkled about by us and contributors.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 05:43:59 AM by VortexCortex » Logged

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« Reply #46 on: February 26, 2013, 05:38:27 AM »

I vote overall goal or storyline, such as: You are looking for your princess (highly simple, but we can make an actual one later), and you have to go through a strange land which has just been morphed. As you go through the land, you will meet people who will give you quests. Perhaps one or two quests per setting, which will try and bring you closer to your princess.
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« Reply #47 on: February 26, 2013, 05:49:28 AM »

Would be interesting to see a rogue-like with some sort of combat alternative for gaining experience/gear. This could be small mini-games like farming in monster hunter (irrelevant game I know). The reason this would be interesting to add is that anyone could code a short sweet mini-game which could be integrated fairly easily especially in terms of art. Anyway just a thought. Also in terms of name it should be something obscure like Penny arcade's on the rain slick precipice of darkness. I just love that title and it is ambiguous enough to be provocative but not discerning of the game's content. Anyway sorry for the rambling, also how do I get involved. I know C++ and JS js mainly from unity though. I work in blender and photoshop too so I could create some basic art assets. Thanks!
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« Reply #48 on: February 26, 2013, 04:29:38 PM »

I vote overall goal or storyline, such as: [...] you have to go through a strange land which has just been morphed. As you go through the land, you will meet people who will give you quests.

I think a central yet generic plot-line like that could work well.  Esp. if we allow the creation of side quests.

Would be interesting to see a rogue-like with some sort of combat alternative for gaining experience/gear. This could be small mini-games like farming [...] anyone could code a short sweet mini-game which could be integrated fairly easily especially in terms of art.

This is one of the strong reasons I want to use HTML5+JS.  Complete new game modes can be added via mods that simply load a JavaScript file in a certain section of the game.  Imagine how you would do that with C/C++ or Java alone?  You'd have to create an in-game language / API for creating mini-games, or at best, use Rhino or VP8 JS engines to provide scripting language support for mods -- suddenly the project gets a lot more complex.

Having such a mini-game in-built from the outset eliminates the need to allow folks to add custom mods to provide the feature, enabling the static C/C++ and Java implementations to support the feature w/o embedding a language like JS or Lua.

It's not a bad Idea to have some type of variation in leveling from kill = EXP, but as in D&D one could simply earn experience for anything you do, including mini-games.  That would free the player from having to do the farming game if they hate it, or grinding away fighting enemies (they could do a minigame instead).

I think this adds an order more complexity to the game balance equation, so we'd need some concrete examples of good minigames to include, IMO.  That means a full separate game design, coding, testing, for each minigame (a lot of work) so it better be an idea that many folks will enjoy if it's going to be central to the gameplay.  If it's just optional one off mini-games that exist in various areas, then if we go the HTML5+JS engine route we can do that no problem through the mod & patch system.

Quote
Anyway just a thought. Also in terms of name it should be something obscure like Penny arcade's on the rain slick precipice of darkness. ...

Beyond the Mist Shrouded Bulwark of Evil.
Once Upon a Temporal Anomaly.
A Path Surprisingly Circuitous in Nature.

Meh, don't be afraid to drop some name ideas.

Quote
Anyway sorry for the rambling, also how do I get involved. I know C++ and JS js mainly from unity though. I work in blender and photoshop too so I could create some basic art assets. Thanks!

TOO LATE!  You're already involved now.  Your mental seeds have been collected and added to our own. Smiley

We're in the planning stage right now, so I'd hold off on art or code specific to the game until the design is more concrete.  You can help by posting your opinions in response to the above posts, and helping us to finalize the game design.  After that we'll figure out a collaboration space -- Github, etc. and I can optionally host the files on one of my servers too / setup FTP accounts for contributors & whatnot -- Although, If Mason Engine is up to speed by then, then we may not need any additional collaboration platform, you'd just use the engine to build the game.

I'll paste here a post from the original thread:
Well, it seems most folks (including myself) like the idea of a Roguelike.  However, that could cover a pretty broad range of gameplay.   Assuming that's the genre chosen (not that I'm saying it is), the features would need to be proposed and decided upon before any real work is done, or even just to decide between this roguelike design, or another competing design.

It's not required that anyone have experience with a roguelike to continue, but just FYI here's what Wikipedia says about the genre:

Quote from: Wikipedia
The gameplay elements characterizing the roguelike genre were explicitly defined at the International Roguelike Development Conference 2008. Some of the "high value factors" used in this definition include:

    Roguelike games randomly generate dungeon levels, though they may include static levels as well. Generated layouts typically incorporate rooms connected by corridors, some of which may be preset to a degree (e.g., monster lairs or treasuries). Open areas or natural features, like rivers, may also occur.

    The identity of magical items varies across games. Newly-discovered objects only offer a vague physical description that is randomized between games, with purposes and capabilities left unstated. For example, a "bubbly" potion might heal wounds one game, then poison the player character in the next. Items are often subject to alteration, acquiring specific traits, such as a curse, or direct player modification.

    The combat system is turn-based instead of real-time. Gameplay is usually step-based, where player actions are performed serially and take a variable measure of in-game time to complete. Game processes (e.g., monster movement and interaction, progressive effects such as poisoning or starvation) advance based on the passage of time dictated by these actions.

    Most are single-player games. On multi-user systems, scoreboards are often shared between players. Some roguelikes allow traces of former player characters to appear in later game sessions in the form of ghosts or grave markings.

    Roguelikes traditionally implement permadeath. Once a character dies, the player must begin a new game. A "save game" feature will only provide suspension of gameplay and not a limitlessly recoverable state; the stored session is deleted upon resumption or character death.

That said, it's OK (even encouraged) to diverge from previously designed games (see eigenbom's mention of DoomRL).

Here's some of the currently suggested ideas:
  • on an island, based around survival?
  • instead of always being in a dungeon you could explore a world.
  • Roguelike... in spaaaaaaace!
  • long range gun or laser based combat
  • It has to be easy to mod.
  • It can't really have a story ... without some sort of director.
  • It has to be 2d.
  • easy to make art for.
  • tile based (my suggestion)

...

What level of randomization would there be?  Randomized quests, randomized item effects vs descriptions / images?  Eg: Green leaves could heal one game, then red potion could heal the next [and green leaves be poison, or some other effect].
...
Would there be permadeath?  Would there be limited save/continue system?
...
Would the combat be turn based or real-time or some sort of time dialation while deciding the next action, etc.   Real-time action would be more akin to Action RPGs.
...
do any tiles animate?  Do the character, items, and/or enemies have animation.  Is the character customizable?  Can you level up?  How?  Do monsters level up / get harder or easier or stay the same as you return to a visited area?  Do monsters spawn randomly, do THEY have permadeath? -or- do the monsters respawn each time you enter the area?  Some mixture of these?

One of the things about rougelikes is that they have a steep learning curve and some have rather unintuitive controls.  If a graphical engine is used you could have hotkeys as well as menus to make actions more discoverable.  Even so, roguelikes with randomized item effects and monster weaknesses, etc, retain a steep learing curve each time you die and restart (this is even part of their appeal to some).  Think on that when making design choices.

Once the particulars and the scope is better defined it will be easier to see what tools (if any) or engine must be created (or utilized) to build the game.

Still no word about permadeath (game saves that you can pause, save & continue, but not reload to undo your actions if you goof).  Should we?

Is there one character or several?  Are there character classes or are abilities chosen through gameplay; e.g., go to the magic guild and learn a spell, now you've got magic?  Or, "sorry, you're a fighter class, fighters have no use for spells." ?

Should we setup a Wiki for this project so folks can collaborate on the design easier?

So, just keep posting what you think about stuff, the more input the better.
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« Reply #49 on: February 26, 2013, 05:11:43 PM »

If we want to focus on exploration, perhaps permadeath is a bad idea. It stops the player from truly exploring, as they feel that they may lose what they have. This promotes wary gameplay, and that is not what we really want. I suggest a system of checkpoints, where the player can drop a save stone. When they die, they will respawn at the save stone with only three of their items, which they will choose.
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« Reply #50 on: February 26, 2013, 06:37:37 PM »

Savestones sounds like an interesting mechanic.  Would they be expendable inventory items, or have infinite supply?  Also, would the dead body and all the stuff stay in the world for you to collect the goods (leaving the world intact), or would it be a reset to a saved state?

Could you pickup previously dropped save stones?  E.g., They carry it forward drop it, then once defeating an area can buy a new one later, or retrieve the previously dropped stone?

Anyhow, I'm for any sort of compromise without removing all fear of death.  The tension of being afraid to die constantly was some of my fondest times in roguelikes, but did limit my exploration options -- Being that everything was randomized though, I didn't feel like exploring: The further room had just as much chance as the nearer or next room, to contain loot, so why explore when every path I took resulted in the same risk/reward?
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« Reply #51 on: February 26, 2013, 08:05:10 PM »

I was thinking that when the player drops a save stone, they choose three items from their inventory. Then those items await them when they respawn. I don't think the items should stay with the dead body. If they get no items when they respawn, then they won't be able to defeat whatever killed them the first time.
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« Reply #52 on: February 27, 2013, 11:10:17 AM »

You could also try it like this:
When player dies he will try to "fight" death back by travelling to his fading conciousness and try to fixing it? And that's where procedural generation can come in.
Make player fight for what he did and make it interesting. Durr...?
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« Reply #53 on: March 01, 2013, 03:47:46 AM »

I don't know what the current plan is but why worry about tilesets and 'html5' (2D Canvas/ WebGL/SVG/3D CSS transforms (mozila/webkit/chrome/ie)) graphics engine at this stage when developing a roguelike ?

I'll do some/the character design right in this quotebox
Quote
@

then we can create gameplay rather soon.
and later you can always add the use of tilesets for the faint of heart.
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VortexCortex
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« Reply #54 on: March 01, 2013, 05:08:47 AM »

I don't know what the current plan is but why worry about tilesets and 'html5' (2D Canvas/ WebGL/SVG/3D CSS transforms (mozila/webkit/chrome/ie)) graphics engine at this stage when developing a roguelike ?

Do you realize that you're essentially repeating what we've already said?  That "platform wars are pointless" and that the "game needs to be designed first", "there are more important questions to answer". 

Or are you just trying to be arrogant, condescending, and (ironically) superior for no other reason than because no one can stop you?

Quote
I'll do some/the character design right in this quotebox
Quote
@
Please do explain how this mocking contribution is in any way called for?

Especially when we already have this:


And these


And others.


Quote
then we can create gameplay rather soon.
and later you can always add the use of tilesets for the faint of heart.

Yes, indeed, now, on with the discussion, which is about what gameplay to create.  Which, your post is lacking any mention of despite many unanswered questions having been posed, and your claimed desire to create the gameplay "soon".

You could also try it like this:
When player dies he will try to "fight" death back by travelling to his fading conciousness and try to fixing it? And that's where procedural generation can come in.
Make player fight for what he did and make it interesting. Durr...?

I'm not sure how to implement this, do you have an example in mind of how that would play out on the screen?

Edit:
Borderlands did something like this, yes?  Only instead of going into your mind to fix things you just kept fighting for your life, and if you kill one bad guy somehow you've traded Death their life for yours.

I sort of like that idea if we can somehow tie it into the story -- Maybe The Grim Reaper himself comes out of the dimension of the dead, and starts approaching you while you're dying / bleed out timer, etc.   If you can kill one enemy then the Specter of Death takes the enemy's soul instead of your own back to the nether realms.

If we let the character keep moving while they're almost dead they can even try to run from death a bit, but he will eventually catch them, and soon, unless they kill an enemy.

Something like that we could do with just a grim reaper sprite and a timer, but it would lack the psychonauts-esque journey into your mind.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 05:33:46 AM by VortexCortex » Logged

theweirdn8
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« Reply #55 on: March 01, 2013, 05:34:37 AM »

Let us begin working on the story an characters together.

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« Reply #56 on: March 01, 2013, 06:14:12 AM »

whoa whoa

I got the impression that HTML5 is perceived in this thread as the end of platform wars and that by that logic it's a good solution.

I think html5 is the most fragmented piece of crap the webdeveloper of today has to work around. Maybe in  a while it'll be there you know.
check this for example http://html5test.com/results/desktop.html
And since the game ought to become a roguelike I think you can work around many (html5 related graphics) problems by using the well respected @ .

I just think your better off building a standard roguelike engine (like libtcod (foregroundcolor/backgroundcolor/ascii character)) in javascript and html(3).
And then, when you actually have a moving @ on a screen you can worry about / play together to build gamemechanics in javascript.

but whatever I must be condensing/arrogant/(ironically) superior because nobody can stop me.
I which I could unsubscribe.

oh and here are some practical ideas
http://doryen.eptalys.net/data/libtcod/doc/1.5.1/index2.html?c=false&cpp=false&cs=false&py=false&lua=false
http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=How_to_Write_a_Roguelike_in_15_Steps


bye now!

 
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« Reply #57 on: March 01, 2013, 07:31:20 AM »

whoa whoa

I got the impression that HTML5 is perceived in this thread as the end of platform wars and that by that logic it's a good solution.

You thought wrong because you didn't actually read the thread.  I even mentioned creating a native C client, and that for the tricky bits of code that would have to be compatible with each other I've already got both the Java and C sources interoperating with HTML5+JS.

In short, you're being willfully ignorant.

Quote
I think html5 is the most fragmented piece of crap the webdeveloper of today has to work around.

No one cares what you think about the platform war, it is over.  Cross platform data formats and multiple clients on different platforms is fully on the table right now.  HTML5 is one of the platforms I'd like to support because I can justify writing code for the game if so.


Quote
I just think your better off building a standard roguelike engine

Yes, yes, IF you HAD read the threads you'd have noticed that was my original consensus as well.  However, the current design has elements that would be difficult to perform, and 2D is trivial to code for, so modding an existing codebase would probably take more time.

I get the distinct impression you were never going to contribute anything but trollish comments here.  Post code or STFU re: platforms.

Quote
bye now!

Good riddance.
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« Reply #58 on: March 01, 2013, 07:45:40 AM »

Let us begin working on the story an characters together.

Sounds like a plan.  What do you have in mind?


Also, did we decide on the settings / tilesets for the settings?  Futuristic / Medieval, or Altlantian / Alien or Living Dead / Cyborgs, etc. ?   I'm up for whatever, should probably be up to the writers anyway.

Once we know how many base themes the world will have I can plug some temporary placeholder art into the procedural world generator and we can start tweaking it to our liking. Smiley
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« Reply #59 on: March 01, 2013, 07:53:12 AM »

I setup an IRC channel and updated the main thread with:

Forum too slow or too permanent for your liking?

Try #tigCOOP on esper.net (IRC)

irc://irc.esper.net/tigCOOP
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