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998138 Posts in 39141 Topics- by 30547 Members - Latest Member: RWG68

April 17, 2014, 05:43:08 PM
TIGSource ForumsFeedbackDevLogsTIGS Coop. Game Dev, Now 50% More Roguelike-ish!
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Author Topic: TIGS Coop. Game Dev, Now 50% More Roguelike-ish!  (Read 4780 times)
Quarry
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« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2013, 11:31:17 AM »

Hello guys,

I think it will be best for those interested to have skype.This way we can have an easier and quicker communication stream among people interested.

The game should either be made via C/C++, Java or Unity3D.

It should also have Linux support.

HTML 5 is cross-platform
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theweirdn8
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« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2013, 11:47:13 AM »

HTML5 is cross-platform, but not natively.

Also, this may be just me, but I do not take too kindly to playing games in WebBrowsers.
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« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2013, 11:59:23 AM »

I actively dislike playing games in web browsers myself, and will only play in browser if not given an other option.
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Quarry
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« Reply #33 on: February 25, 2013, 12:02:55 PM »

I actively dislike playing games in web browsers myself, and will only play in browser if not given an other option.

You have to play on a browser if you have no other choices Cheesy
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VortexCortex
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« Reply #34 on: February 25, 2013, 12:19:38 PM »

HTML5 is cross-platform, but not natively.

Also, this may be just me, but I do not take too kindly to playing games in WebBrowsers.

OK, I actually anticipated this response.  That's why I planned the HTML5 engine to be general purpose enough to use in multiple games, not just this one -- so that my time won't have been wasted if it doesn't get used by this project.

The thing is, I have other uses for a HTML5 2D Tile based engine, and was attempting to kill 2 birds with one stone by using this project as a flagship.  So, I'm going to continue building the Mason Engine, for building collaborative 2D tile worlds.  Whether folks choose to use it is up to them.

The protocols are being designed with client side abstraction in mind.  That means you could build a radical new native client in any other language in the universe in addition to the HTML5 web engine, and have both native and web browser options.

I don't think a 2D Tile based roguelike-ish game requires the power to justify the risk of downloading unsigned binaries from strangers and running them on your PC natively...  Going to a website and editing and playing the game is a far lower barrier to entry, IMO.

I already have my own 3D cross platform native projects in the works, so spending my time programming this in C/C++/Java, etc, just isn't appealing to me personally.  Native 2D tile engines already exist (download Nethack and replace the game data, you're done). I'd rather put my effort into bringing new collaboration features to the community rather than using an existing engine like Unity3D which I have no source code for, and don't have the freedom to extend.  If Unity goes out of business my time spent developing for their closed platform will have been wasted, so I personally would use SFML or SDL, it's not like you need Unity's features for a tile engine;  I mean, unless we make the game a 3D adventure or something.


Don't get me wrong, It's fine with me if folks want to go the native route instead, and I'll still contribute in other ways, but I won't be able to contribute any time writing code for the project if it's a native only codebase.

Additionally, This forum serves as a public record and keeps things out in the open and recorded for all to see.  I don't think Skype should be required for anyone to contribute.  I don't run closed source software made by people I don't trust, so I won't be able to use Skype either -- IMO, that seems like an arbitrary requirement.  What about an IRC chat room or an open source VOIP solution instead?

Note: I work and sleep weird hours because most of my business is with overseas clients.  That's another reason a forum seems the best option to me -- Folks can collaborate without being awake at the same time (this is akin to the TIGWorld threads, which I personally find appealing from a collaboration perspective).
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 12:29:02 PM by VortexCortex » Logged

Quarry
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« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2013, 01:11:17 PM »

What about using Java and making it open-source
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VortexCortex
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« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2013, 01:17:23 PM »

I'd advocate making any of the code open source, regardless of language used.  Mason Engine will be fully open source.  JavaScript is open source by design: Right Click -> View Source.

Java development has no benefit over using SDL/SFML with C/C++.  It's trivial to have one native source tree that compiles on all the same platforms that Java runs on.  In fact, I use a Java Stub to load my native C code for some Android development...  Testing on each platform must still be done because Java is not "write once run everywhere", it's become more like: Write once, Debug Everywhere -- This is no different to C or C++ in that regard; However, there are much better real time debugging solutions for native C/C++, IMO.

I'm not against developing in Java, I just fail to see the point.  It has all of the drawbacks of C/C++ with none of the performance.
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theweirdn8
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« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2013, 01:19:23 PM »

If we make the game in HTML5 we might as well just use Game Maker or Corona.
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VortexCortex
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« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2013, 02:16:37 PM »

If we make the game in HTML5 we might as well just use Game Maker or Corona.

Except that Game maker doesn't have a collaborative development API for patching and modding a continually evolving game world.  Don't make the incorrect assumption that Game Maker utilizes the full feature-set of HTML5.  One is a framework for rapid application development, the other is a proprietary vendor lock-in system that has a web export feature...

I'd rather not turn the thread into a pointless language or platform war.

The fact is that I'm not writing code that doesn't need to be written.  If you want to use game maker to create the game, go ahead.  If you want to use Java, or C, or C++, or AppleScript, that's fine.

I think we should focus on the game design itself here, we're not really even to the point of deciding what language / platform it must be created in because folks still haven't decided all of the required features, eg: Will the game have permadeath or not?

There are many more important questions to answer.  You can't just pick a toolset or language and say it's the best choice for a game that has an incomplete design.

If the design of this game is possible to implement in the HTML5 engine that I'm coding then we should probably use that engine.  As it stands I think I can implement all of the desired functionality.  If you want to champion some other platform then that's fine, get to coding, no one will object.

TL;DR: Put your code where your mouth is.

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DustyDrake
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« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2013, 02:35:35 PM »

Quote
Essentially, the over-map will be one big huge seamless world.  Procedural generation will create the majority of the major land forms, random enemies, rivers, etc.  Regions of different "factions" or tilesets will be dispersed in the world by the generator: from small pockets to large dominated areas, to mixtures between them.  It's all the same world, just treat everything like one big tileset -- Think of the way terrain generators create mountains, plains, water,  now, imagine the world divided up like that into different factions -- Instead of water you have the magic users, instead of mountains you have Aliens, or whatever.   We'll use two separate passes of the noise patterns, one for land form creation -- 'This is land, this is water, this is mountain, this is lava'  Then we run the pass again and say this spot is futuristic, this spot is ancient magic, etc, and so you get the different factions smoothly layed out across one big generated world.
This bit I don't like.
It makes sense when you think about it from the time travelers perspective, that the terrain hasn't changed over the years, except by some erosion from the medieval to future periods maybe, but when I think that large chunks of land being displaced from their home dimensions/timelines, I don't think seamless world.
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VortexCortex
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« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2013, 05:30:16 PM »

when I think that large chunks of land being displaced from their home dimensions/timelines, I don't think seamless world.

And yet, the map of the Earth remains largely unchanged since the earliest days of man.  2 million years is hardly a heartbeat on a geologic time scale.  Written history spans not even the blink of an eye in that regard.

Not that game worlds have to be realistic.  IMO, the seamlessness would be a consequence of using a procedural generation algorithm.  If we want some parts to be seamless regions larger than one screen size then we need to leverage that type of seamlessness for all regions.

Who's to say what's realistic though: If you time travel back in time 3 seconds into your same location of space relative to the solar or galactic center then you're basically dead because everything in this Universe is moving quite rapidly;  Depending on the frame of reference, an errant time machine could very well toss you out into the void of space while leaving you right where you are.

I'm sure a more jarring displacement effect would be possible by simply giving each faction tileset a different fixed offset into the world generation system.   That could be an interesting effect.  You could see some land feature then walk a few screens over and see the same land feature but with a different tileset.

The alternative is to run a separately seeded terrain generation algorithm for each tile-set.  That would mean that there will almost always be a jarring effect when you switch from one time area to another.    with the offset approach: regions closer in time could have less jarring differences; However I sort of dislike the idea of seeing a lot of the same stuff multiple times; If the offsets are kept large enough to be jarring but not too large to repeat whole nearby land-features, then it could work out quite nicely.


Regardless of the generation system it doesn't stop you from re-creating chunks of the world as you see fit -- Jarring distinctions or smoothed out.   Once the generator is running we'll certainly have to play with the parameters and come to a consensus about how exactly to make things look.

Thanks for the input!  It was more valuable than you know.
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theweirdn8
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« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2013, 05:52:56 PM »

Will this game have a story or simply we make it up in our head as we play?
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Quarry
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« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2013, 09:13:02 PM »

I'd advocate making any of the code open source, regardless of language used.  Mason Engine will be fully open source.  JavaScript is open source by design: Right Click -> View Source.

Java development has no benefit over using SDL/SFML with C/C++.  It's trivial to have one native source tree that compiles on all the same platforms that Java runs on.  In fact, I use a Java Stub to load my native C code for some Android development...  Testing on each platform must still be done because Java is not "write once run everywhere", it's become more like: Write once, Debug Everywhere -- This is no different to C or C++ in that regard; However, there are much better real time debugging solutions for native C/C++, IMO.

I'm not against developing in Java, I just fail to see the point.  It has all of the drawbacks of C/C++ with none of the performance.

I guess you should be updating your opinions on how Java is
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Impmaster
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« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2013, 10:16:44 PM »

Will this game have a story or simply we make it up in our head as we play?

Probably make one up. If we have a proper story, then it'll be hard to mod stuff, without making it look weird.
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VortexCortex
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« Reply #44 on: February 25, 2013, 11:59:38 PM »

I guess you should be updating your opinions on how Java is

I develop in Java on a weekly basis.  I know how it is.  It's crap.  JIT compilation means we're compiling our code to machine code each time we run the program.  What's the point?  That defeats the security benefit of a VM.  Perhaps you should update your opinion on the state of cross platform native application deployment.  Use C/C++, compile once, test once, DON'T worry about an upgrade to the VM platform breaking your code.
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