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1025790 Posts in 41109 Topics- by 32713 Members - Latest Member: CarlaWolfe

July 23, 2014, 05:56:24 AM
TIGSource ForumsFeedbackDevLogsTIGS Coop. Game Dev, Now 50% More Roguelike-ish!
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Author Topic: TIGS Coop. Game Dev, Now 50% More Roguelike-ish!  (Read 5731 times)
poe
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« Reply #75 on: March 05, 2013, 01:38:36 PM »

Shit.

I like your tiles Desierata, they remind me of GBC games a lot.
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« Reply #76 on: March 05, 2013, 01:55:22 PM »

Sorry caiys. Thanks Poe it's my first attempt at a tileset and my first pixel art in a while. I'm thinking the gbc colours could be used for the spirit world. After playing Anodyne I guess I associate the bland colour theme with a  sort of soul world, could be an interesting palette to use. Especially if the player visits it frequently. Will probably invoke a sort of nostalgia which would make sense if you have lived through multiple lives. The soul world wouldn't be something you remember clearly more something you have a strange attachement to. Anyway i'm rambling.
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« Reply #77 on: March 05, 2013, 02:36:34 PM »

The soul world wouldn't be something you remember clearly more something you have a strange attachement to.

Ah, so it's the 80's then...

The gods will have large billowing hair and androgynous forms beneath their leathered, zippered and leopard-printed exteriors.
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« Reply #78 on: March 05, 2013, 11:21:31 PM »

For sure yeah, anyway I'm just hypothesising about what I see it being the game is a Coop so we all need to make the decision!
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« Reply #79 on: March 06, 2013, 12:43:37 AM »

Remind me, cause I've forgotten. Are we randomly generating areas, or will they be placed down? I prefer random generation, cause you know. Procedural generation. The words alone sound sexy to my ears.  Kiss
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« Reply #80 on: March 06, 2013, 03:22:33 AM »

We're doing a hybrid of both procedural generation and 'placed down' areas.  The current plan is to use procedural generation for the over-world. Over-world will be the same for every game (same seed each play).  This enables free roaming exploration.   There will be procedurally generated dungeons (and towers?) too, but these will be randomized each play.  The placement of the dungeons in the overworld will be the same each play, but the insides of the dungeons will be different.  If you return to a dungeon in the same play-through it'll be the same as you left it though (to encourage exploration of other areas).  Return to that same dungeon entrance on a new play-through it'll be different.

With both the over-world and the dungeons folks can decide to change the current region they're looking at by editing that part of the map, even add their own new tile-sets to the game.  That edited area becomes user created and is no longer procedurally generated.  You could decide to create some crazy stuff as the 13th floor of a dungeon -- to place quest items or boss battles, for example -- but leave all the floors surrounding that part randomized.

While you edit part of the world your edits exist only on your computer.  This is so you can design and refine the part you're working on and test it to ensure it works.  Once you're satisfied you can create a patch delta that contains your edits to the world.  These user created patches can then be shared with each other as mods, or uploaded and patched into the main game so that everyone can experience them.

That means the world will probably be mostly procedurally generated, but over time it can get more user patched stuff in it.  I'm hoping the randomized dungeons will keep the unchanging user patched parts from being too stale;  If players get bored of the static patched parts of the world they can just strike out into the endless randomly generated frontier.

That's the plan anyway; Things may change as stuff gets built but this is the goal I'm shooting for.  I think is has the potential to please the most folks.

_________

We still need to decide if the items and their effects should be randomized each play.  In some roguelikes you can find items like "a red flower bud" which turns out to heal you if you eat it, but next time you start the game over those red flowers could be poisonous, or make you go berserk and attack everything you see...
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« Reply #81 on: March 06, 2013, 03:26:17 AM »

I don't know. I've always hated the concept of randomized items. It seems too much to me like the dev is punishing the player for trying out things.

By the way, how difficult would it to make the world multiplayer? Not saying that we should, just wondering.
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« Reply #82 on: March 06, 2013, 03:47:35 AM »

Yeah, the randomized items can be quite frustrating.  This is usually mitigated by having harmful potions and such not be extremely deadly.  That way you know to drink a new potion to see what it does when you have full health, in a safe environment.  Once you discover its effects though it's not so bad.  What can be bad is when you try to come back to a saved game after a while and remember what all that crap does.  If we adopt a random item system we should list the known effects in a menu somewhere.   I could go either way on randomized items.

how difficult would it to make the world multiplayer? Not saying that we should, just wondering.

I've actually made allowances for that sort of thing in the engine design, asset formats, and fetch / sync protocol.  Multiplayer would require that players synchronize their random seeds, which is very simple.  Multiplayer would also need some way of synchronizing the world changes between players, say, streaming the world deltas between players as some kind of 'patches', heh.

So, that's why the patch system works that way: It's a general purpose solution to create saved games, world mods, offline collaborative building, or to synchronize world data between players in real-time (for multiplayer).  I don't have plans to add multiplayer support to the 1st version of the game, but I'm considering local multi-player (ala Minecraft) as a feature for some future version, and making good scalable design decisions (like sharded asset storage) in case the game wants to be an MMO with collaborative world building someday.

Note that I'm not insane.  Massively multiplayer games are difficult by their nature.  I'm not attempting to create an MMO engine at the outset, that would be crazy; I'm only trying not to limit the possibilities needlessly.
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« Reply #83 on: March 06, 2013, 03:52:14 AM »

To my noobish ears, you sound like a good coder.

If you drink a potion when you are in a safe area, then what is the point? You've already drunk the potion. If it heals, you are already safe. If it hurts, you are hurt. You can't really use it again.
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« Reply #84 on: March 06, 2013, 07:26:28 AM »

The point is to identify potion type, not just a single item, if the potion was a healing potion, you now know all potions of that type. The problem of the identification relates to game lenght, if the game is quite long, eventually all types are identified and that "sub game" disappears. Only sane possibility i see, is that identifications are randomed for each dungeon, not the whole game.

Roguelike radio episode 30 is all about identification systems and might be worth checking out.

Let players use potions in multiple ways, like in nethack, where you can throw potions. That potion of acid could be quite useful. Also this would allow safer identification by throwing unknown potions on enemies and then observe the effects. Risk is buffing a monster, but that's definitely better than risking insta-death.
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« Reply #85 on: March 06, 2013, 09:17:21 AM »

If you drink a potion when you are in a safe area, then what is the point? You've already drunk the potion. If it heals, you are already safe. If it hurts, you are hurt. You can't really use it again.

It's not that each individual potion would be random.  For example, once you discovered that eating a 'red flower' item causes Berserk status effect, then you know that for the current game all red flowers cause berserk.   With randomized items if you start out a fresh new game then it could be red flowers now heal you instead, and a 'green bubbly potion' could then cause berserk.

IMO, the point is just to keep alive that sense of exploration.  If you woke up tomorrow in wonder land, you wouldn't know what stuff to eat to make yourself big or small until you tried it (or tried it on someone else).  Roguelikes with randomized item effects foster a sense of being unsure and cautious about your potentially dangerous surroundings; As you become familiar with the strange new world you can be more sure of yourself.  Also it keeps folks from looking up what everything does on a Wiki...

The problem of the identification relates to game lenght, if the game is quite long, eventually all types are identified and that "sub game" disappears. Only sane possibility i see, is that identifications are randomed for each dungeon, not the whole game.

I agree that the "sub game" of identifying things goes away the longer you play, but that's not always a bad thing.  The player could have grown out of that identification stage of the game, and can now reduce cognitive load of identifying things to focus on higher minded stuff like combining spell and item effects, etc.

Randomized items per dungeon is an interesting idea, I'm in no way against it.  However, it introduces a few problems that would have to be worked out:  If you take some healing potions out of one dungeon and into another dungeon, do they still heal?  If they do, but newly acquired potions have a different effect, then you might wind up with two 'red flower' items in your inventory that both do different things.  Alternatively, the items in your existing inventory could be changed into the newly randomized types of items, but then what's the point of identifying items since your inventory becomes your "rosetta stone": I had 16 green potions that healed me, and 3 blue poisons, now I have 16 black salves, and 3 red flasks...  You could prevent the player from taking items with them in / out of dungeons but that doesn't seem like the thing to do if you're looking for "sane" possibilities (that won't drive players crazy).

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Roguelike radio episode 30 is all about identification systems and might be worth checking out.

Thanks! I'm checking it out. Here's the aforementioned episode link if any are interested:
http://www.roguelikeradio.com/2012/04/episode-30-identification-systems.html


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Let players use potions in multiple ways, like in nethack, where you can throw potions.

Excellent point.   I had just assumed folks would use items on things other than themselves, but that's another point to decide on.  Previously some sort of 'longer range' attacks were mentioned as well...
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« Reply #86 on: March 06, 2013, 10:40:11 AM »

A quick way to make the identification system useful is by making every potion do something advantageous, so harmful poisons could be thrown for splash damage!
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« Reply #87 on: March 06, 2013, 11:06:48 AM »

I agree that the "sub game" of identifying things goes away the longer you play, but that's not always a bad thing.  The player could have grown out of that identification stage of the game, and can now reduce cognitive load of identifying things to focus on higher minded stuff like combining spell and item effects, etc.

Randomized items per dungeon is an interesting idea, I'm in no way against it.  However, it introduces a few problems that would have to be worked out:  If you take some healing potions out of one dungeon and into another dungeon, do they still heal?  If they do, but newly acquired potions have a different effect, then you might wind up with two 'red flower' items in your inventory that both do different things.  Alternatively, the items in your existing inventory could be changed into the newly randomized types of items, but then what's the point of identifying items since your inventory becomes your "rosetta stone": I had 16 green potions that healed me, and 3 blue poisons, now I have 16 black salves, and 3 red flasks...  You could prevent the player from taking items with them in / out of dungeons but that doesn't seem like the thing to do if you're looking for "sane" possibilities (that won't drive players crazy).

I think all that is solvable quite easily. Items such as potions have description AND origin. When a player gets a new item, he knows it's origin, right? This was from that dungeon and that was from the temple. It makes even more sense with multiple different settings. Why wouldn't the player character be able to differentiate a bottle from not-too-distant future from another bottle from magical past. This way items took from earlier dungeons can be taken to others, with no effect on the identification subgame.
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« Reply #88 on: March 08, 2013, 04:20:52 PM »

Just dropping a note here to say that I've done some more work on the graphics systems for this game, but I'll be out of commission for about a week: I'm participating in the 7 day Roguelike Challenge

This kind of hit me by surprise, and totally unprepared (esp. scheduling wise).  I initially didn't plan to participate since I have to work that week, but I just kept thinking about cool stuff I could do (too many stuffs, in fact).  So, I'm going to give the challenge my best shot, even if I'm not able to give it the full attention it deserves.

I randomly selected HTML5 as the platform for the 7DRL, so I plan to use the challenge as a chance to get the audio and graphics systems of this project into a working state.

Shortly after the challenge is over I'll have a bunch more progress to post here as well. Smiley

If any are interested in my 7 day roguelike entry you can track my progress here.
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« Reply #89 on: March 08, 2013, 05:28:04 PM »

Alright. Good luck!
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