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1027487 Posts in 41220 Topics- by 32834 Members - Latest Member: BeardedSloth

July 28, 2014, 06:23:08 AM
TIGSource ForumsDeveloperCreativeDesignGood motion & touch controls
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Graham-
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« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2013, 03:42:48 PM »

This is the biggest issue with gestures and motion control. Same thing with "brain readers" - devices that use your thinking as input.

Devs look for something that is obvious to use right away. This is wrong. They should look for something that is maximally precise and expressive. Then build a game around teaching the player how to use it. Or an AI that adapts to the player. Or both.

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« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2013, 04:14:41 PM »

I'm reading that the PS4 is focused on linking mobile to the console. You can watch your friends play with your mobile remotely, carry your game with you, or at least a piece of it. This and glass. Everyone is going the tablet + console route. Wii U is in the pool w/ everyone else.

Someone (me) should make a good game that takes advantage of the six axis and regular controls simultaneously. 0 games I've played even try.
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« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2013, 04:28:44 PM »

The problem of any creative field is to be creative, in video game, the game is literally the interface, interface is the purpose of game. Instead of regurgating the same copy paste mess we should reinvent the "interface" as much as possible. That's what made nintendo mythical until he start doing like everybody, pumping the same game without anything news. The gameplay IS the interface IS the content. And reinventing does not mean changig everything everytime.

Interface in games can be loosely fitted in 3 category: the head, the hand and the feet.

1. the head is any output to be sense and convey information (rumble, sound, visual, material feedback like pressing a button, etc...)
2. the hand is all the interaction that happen in the gameplay and change the state
3. the feet is the navigation between action and information but does not necessary change the state of the gameplay

Now mapping in game interface tend to group them together (look at the typical layout for fps/3ps game, the button map the hand, the analogue the feet and the head ... literally).

By looking at that you know how expressive is your interface directly or indirectly RELATIVE to your game idea.

Kinect generally has very poor direct spatial navigation, any spatial navigation is likely to be abstract. Kinect is much better for analog interaction, especially social, because there is a high bandwidth of the skeleton, but even then you need to create a specific language or map to an existing one (human body langage), works great for direct mapping like dancing game (even though movement are abstract as a series of fixed pose to match in rythm).

However in the "night into dream" eyetoy (a less expressive device than the kinect) game you had a great indirect mapping to fly in a tube, basically your hand reach a circular zone in a small area displaying your vignette and moving up or down inside the circle area turn the character right or left, not 1:1 motion to character but still very intuitive.

Wii fit use a similar interface by displaying a small board with a point representing your balance, so you ave direct feedback and the board has many zone that where indirect interaction (to go faster maintain the point into the zone). Too bad no body thought about generalizing this to analog stick because it would allow for richer gameplay (dynamic zone and feedback based on tilting the analog), also would work great for regular motion control too as it give a feedback to adjust to (instead of trying to second guess what the system want from you).

SHIT I'M RAMBLING AGAIN

Well what I want to outline is that a good learnable interface has feedback that teach itself to the player. For example I still wonder why nobody use a sound on virtual analogue (or motion tilt everywhere) to feedback value and limit, wii fit is excessively good about it! To bad everybody shrug at wii fit!
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« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2013, 04:51:27 PM »

Using the analogue for gestures is an interesting idea. I'm sure I've mentioned to you before that in my work I've spent a lot of time looking for deeper ways in which players can express themselves to the machine. For my current game players will learn to speak a language, converse with npcs etc. The idea is the same.

You have this really expressive way to communicate, with all these rules and context sensitive meanings. You roll them out to the users, and teach them through mechanics, then as they learn they get better at expressing themselves. What becomes a long thought process becomes automatic, and is used as a building block for more complex expressions.

I haven't spent time coming up with the most natural way to get ideas in through a controller. Using slight mouse movements, nuances in button press timings, analog gestures. All fair game.
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« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2013, 04:57:14 PM »

I'm reading that the PS4 is focused on linking mobile to the console. You can watch your friends play with your mobile remotely, carry your game with you, or at least a piece of it. This and glass. Everyone is going the tablet + console route. Wii U is in the pool w/ everyone else.

Someone (me) should make a good game that takes advantage of the six axis and regular controls simultaneously. 0 games I've played even try.

Do you have an idea?

Before the wiimote ws unveil and I had predict the motion control thingy, I thought they would put a touch screen with gba quality as controller (ds + wario smooth move (motion) + crystal chronicle. I WAS WRONG.

Basically I had an idea that mixed mariokart double dash idea with smash bros. Regular mario kart gameplay but the coins has return and fueled the use of abilities similar to smash bros.

Basically there is the driver and the fighter and they can swap like double dash. each can use the motion tilt control to sway the gravity center of the car, basically influencing the trajectory of the car. For exemple opposite direction tend to give a harsher turn, overturn or underturn depend on which player does the sway, shaking in a direction might ram the car in that direction, allowing for quick adjustment of the character agree on what to do.

The fighter use the touchscreen to directly target things on the race (which became more interactive) to influence the race in the team favor. The fighter can also try to grab or punch nearby opponents. The trick is that if two opponent perform a grab they hold each other hand until one release the grab button. This allow to do some extra move, if one harshly accelerate and the other harshly brake, they does a quick tornado that clear the way centered on the braking vehicle. The trick is that if one button is release while doing the tornado the accelerating vehicle is projected in the air to a certain distance, this has two effect, to screw the team that has been launched OR help them crossing a small gap, but that's hard to pull. Now holding hand can also allow to take shortcut unavailable before, you need another team to balance out some slippery and round bridge that can't be driven on simply.

But all idea stem from the fact I had motion on the pad, it looks good on paper but i'm not sure it's easily translatable on a game (feedback and input). DISCLAIMER, i'm programming the game right now (that's where the architecture rant come from, not from the sonic programming), I had a programmer but he has no interest in "arcade game" what he wanted is to make was iracing style simulation (ugh Sad )
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« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2013, 04:59:17 PM »

Using the analogue for gestures is an interesting idea. I'm sure I've mentioned to you before that in my work I've spent a lot of time looking for deeper ways in which players can express themselves to the machine. For my current game players will learn to speak a language, converse with npcs etc. The idea is the same.

You have this really expressive way to communicate, with all these rules and context sensitive meanings. You roll them out to the users, and teach them through mechanics, then as they learn they get better at expressing themselves. What becomes a long thought process becomes automatic, and is used as a building block for more complex expressions.

I haven't spent time coming up with the most natural way to get ideas in through a controller. Using slight mouse movements, nuances in button press timings, analog gestures. All fair game.

Yeah I remember, I'm truly waiting to see what you will come with Smiley
Do you know game like sweaty palm or the act? they try something like that you should check.
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« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2013, 05:27:17 PM »

Thanks. No I don't know those games.

I don't have an idea for the six-axis. Probably something with dense action controls, or expression of feeling, nuanced ideas. Like, you play normally, but as you tilt forward that's you getting angrier, and tilt to the left to be spontaneous. Your feelings layer on top of your actions. So every action you take is influenced by how you feel. Player must consider both. There's some permanence to each feeling: maximum anger, dissipates at a certain rate etc.

Or you just use it for combo execution, careful placement of actions.

The tough thing with Mario Kart is the co-dependency with the co-op players. They need to be in sync.
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« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2013, 05:35:42 PM »

new super mario Wii U has a great implementation of that, some platform were control by motion independently from the character, tilting tilt the platform which moved in that direction, especially interesting when there was multiples platforms and you had to jump from one controlled platform to another
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« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2013, 05:41:21 PM »

The tough thing with Mario Kart is the co-dependency with the co-op players. They need to be in sync.

 Well, hello there! i would say this is the fun!
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« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2013, 06:01:58 PM »

Tough to train the player for it. Always the bargain with codependency games.
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« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2013, 01:42:59 PM »

Not to say I'm against it. My second serious design - years ago - was all about codependency. You carried your partner like a backpack in an action platformer. Your partner could unhook, or carry you. The game was about using each other in interesting ways, but also relying on one another so players of diverse skill gaps could still cooperate.
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« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2013, 11:04:26 PM »

Actually it's not essential to the gameplay, it's bonus if you master it, i'm expending on my experience with double dash. The basic racing and "fighting" is enough but you can dig deeper to evade fringe situation.

It has many functions, you can goof with it (make the car dance), you can communicate (sending a signal to your parner or grief him for ignoring you), you can save the day for your partner mistake (just dodge that trap by influancing trajectory), etc...

It's design to have many layer of fun. It was typical nintendo design until the GC era. For example mario64 has 16 distinct jump (n^3 his previous number) depending on your playstyle many of them are (functionally) useless and many does literary the same things, it's a game about manipulating the character and having challenge as excuse to use them. Contrast to banjo kazooie which has a lot more varied and different movement but all of them are required to solve the many challenge, it's because the game is focus on the environment as obstacle. Zelda use to be the former but later zelda was more like banjo, pure locks and keys challenge.
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« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2013, 10:31:04 AM »

The best design is somewhere in between, kazooie and mario, old zelda and new.
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« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2013, 12:15:02 PM »

As an aside:

SMB 3 - hard. forces you to do what you can to pass them.
Super Mario World - expressive, challenges are "straw" challenges, excuses to maneuver
SM64 - combines the two.
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