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[Derek]

No Puppy games? Well, which puppy game would you suggest that would be worthy to be on the list?

Later!

Sometimes I wonder if you actually knew enough about indie games to compile a list, or just using pure interest in the scene to hide the fact that you know very little about it.

Later!

Hey, don't be such a fucker, fucker.

It IS a bit weird, not knowing Puppy Games, who made Cave Story, who made Guardian of Paradise or the La-Mulana team's name while making a list that should show others the best and most varied games list the scene has to offer. Some things are just basic knowledge that's needed before you start telling others what the scene has to offer.

I could be wrong, but it seemed like most of the games on that list were suggested by people other than Guert.

Btw, Guert's first post:

I've been playing games for quite a long time, like most of us actually, and I've recenlty discovered the fantastic world of indie games! Yeah! Cheesy I started to develop indie games with some of my friends and I really enjoy this way of gaming.

 But, I have small problem... I'm kinda lost. How can I support the indie game industry? How do I get my game out there? Also, what defines an indie game?
 
 Basically, I just want to get involved more in the community and I don't know where to start. I also don't feel like I have enough knowledge about the indie scene to actually help it as we speak.

In other words, Guert is not in any way trying to pretend he's any kind of indie gaming guru.  Guy came in a few months ago, completely green, and wanting to help the community.  Since he's been here he's posted probably a novel's worth of feedback for other developers and helped compile a list of indie games to help people who were in the position he was in, in April.

But the point is that he's put in a whole lot of time and effort to help out, and it doesn't matter fuck all whether he knows La Mulana's team name.

And the attitude you guys are sporting is basically hard proof that the "indie scene" is composed of a bunch of elitists, so just drop it.

[Kon-Tiki]

You might want to read through this thread again, and see posts like those of Alec, or the asslicking on N while dissing more mainstream-style games, and all those people suggesting crappy but experimental games as not to be missed from the list, simply because they're experimental, no matter how crappy they are, before you call us elitist. Look at the rest first

[shinygerbil]

This better not turn into another war about what it means to be "indie"

[skaldicpoet9]

But the point is that he's put in a whole lot of time and effort to help out, and it doesn't matter fuck all whether he knows La Mulana's team name.

I thought the same exact thing.....I run the Indie Games Section
on GGE and I don't even know their names lol...

[Kon-Tiki]

It apparently means indie if you're positive about any shit, while if you say you don't like a certain this or that game that people here seem to love, you're not indie, and claiming to be indie is enough to be so, without actually knowing your way out of a paper bag about it. I personally don't have anything against Guert. He's a nice enough fellow, and has made a friggin' cool game, but if you run something like this list, you're expected to know the very basics. If somebody comes over suggesting any game by one of the most well-known companies, it's just wrong to interprete it as games about puppies If I'm not indie for thinking that, then fuck indie, I'll do my own damn thing.

[Guert]

I'd like to clarify one thing: I am not an expert of the indie scene. Far from it. If I was one, I would have made one list based on my knowledge. Instead, I asked indie gamers what games they feel are good enough to show the new guys, like me, what the scene has to offer.

The attitude of "I know all, you know not" is what pushed me to create this list. I know commercial video games but I'm still a newbie when we talk about indie. I'm trying to learn but people turn you down when you don't know the so called basics that only long-time indies know. If some games are cult classics and everyone who wants to begin playing indie games should try, well, it should be on the list, with a big sign saying YOU GOTTA TRY THIS RIGHT NOW!!!.

You know, if someone feels like this list is crap and should be deleted, step up and say so. I will reply with the following: "You are probably right. I'm no expert. You know what? Make me a list of indie games that will tell me what are the best titles I should try, of any genres, of any plateformes, based on the feelings of indie gamers, so I can see what the indie scene as to offer and I'll rmeove mine"

If you have such a list, tell me now!

So, if you wanna help me out, help me. If not, stop having a negative attitude toward those who don't have the same knowledge about the scene as you do. Teach me, don't hate me.
  
Another thing... I've decided to dedicate my life to the creation of video games. I want to work to make this medium reknown and elevate it to higher levels. Right now, I'm searching, learning, looking everywhere for all the info I can find. The indie scene is rich, evolving and daring: it's a great source of inspiration and an interesting scene to observe.

Indie, commercial, causal, mobile, whatever, my interest lies in games, not in the scene itself. That's why I want to help people who make games. Not because their indies but because that each developer that makes a good, well created game brings the medium one step closer to a new level or creativity and respect. Indie developpers rarely have the luxury of having a team of designers working 40 hours a week thinking about how their game plays.  

Anyway, I've rambled long enough. My goal is simply to help. If I'm not helping, I will stop on the spot.

No hard feelings. Now let's make the indie scene a more inviting community.
Later!

[skaldicpoet9]

I'd like to clarify one thing: I am not an expert of the indie scene. Far from it. If I was one, I would have made one list based on my knowledge. Instead, I asked indie gamers what games they feel are good enough to show the new guys, like me, what the scene has to offer.

The attitude of "I know all, you know not" is what pushed me to create this list. I know commercial video games but I'm still a newbie when we talk about indie. I'm trying to learn but people turn you down when you don't know the so called basics that only long-time indies know. If some games are cult classics and everyone who wants to begin playing indie games should try, well, it should be on the list, with a big sign saying YOU GOTTA TRY THIS RIGHT NOW!!!.

You know, if someone feels like this list is crap and should be deleted, step up and say so. I will reply with the following: "You are probably right. I'm no expert. You know what? Make me a list of indie games that will tell me what are the best titles I should try, of any genres, of any plateformes, based on the feelings of indie gamers, so I can see what the indie scene as to offer and I'll rmeove mine"

If you have such a list, tell me now!

So, if you wanna help me out, help me. If not, stop having a negative attitude toward those who don't have the same knowledge about the scene as you do. Teach me, don't hate me.
 
Another thing... I've decided to dedicate my life to the creation of video games. I want to work to make this medium reknown and elevate it to higher levels. Right now, I'm searching, learning, looking everywhere for all the info I can find. The indie scene is rich, evolving and daring: it's a great source of inspiration and an interesting scene to observe.

Indie, commercial, causal, mobile, whatever, my interest lies in games, not in the scene itself. That's why I want to help people who make games. Not because their indies but because that each developer that makes a good, well created game brings the medium one step closer to a new level or creativity and respect. Indie developpers rarely have the luxury of having a team of designers working 40 hours a week thinking about how their game plays. 

Anyway, I've rambled long enough. My goal is simply to help. If I'm not helping, I will stop on the spot.

No hard feelings. Now let's make the indie scene a more inviting community.
Later!

Amen to that man

[Derek]

@Kon-tiki:

Dude, I'm not going to read through the thread, I've already read it once.  The "asslicking" on N was people saying they liked it more than Akuji the Demon.  I don't think having an opinion on something makes you an elitist.

In any case, you're missing my main point, which is that Guert isn't pretending he knows everything, he's just trying to help.  He didn't create a list and then put it up on a blog saying it was a list of the best games, he started a thread and he asked people for ideas.  What is the problem here, exactly?

It apparently means indie if you're positive about any shit, while if you say you don't like a certain this or that game that people here seem to love, you're not indie, and claiming to be indie is enough to be so, without actually knowing your way out of a paper bag about it.

What are you even talking about anymore?  Who has said anything to that effect anywhere on this forum?  You said Akuji was better than N (like a billion times) and people disagreed with you.  You need to get over it.

And yeah, I would say that if you enjoy indie games or you make your own game, you can call yourself "indie."  Why not?  What, you have to be an indie gaming historian with a PhD to use the label?

[Derek]

You know what, forget it.  I just think it's wrong to jump on someone who's trying to help out because they don't know the name of a game company.  I like Cas and Puppy Games, but honestly, it is so totally okay if you haven't heard of them.  It's no reason why you shouldn't start a thread to help others.

I don't give a shit how indie anyone is.  And if that's really important to you, then what more can I say?  The idea that there's a "level of indieness" is just so totally offensive to me.

[Kon-Tiki]

Derek, I think you're missing the point here, as it's not only N vs. Akuji or such, but also crap like Staircase Dismount or such. The very core attitude here, seems to be that the less mainstream a game is, or the more hyped-up, the indie-er it is. It's shown amongst plenty of members. Guert actually hasn't shown this, and has shown the right mindset. About the helping out... I've suggested a pissload of games on here, and they've mostly been dissed. One of them (Transcendence) didn't make the list, but I saw it on the front page earlier today. It's good to see good games promoted instead of crappy piles of shit, but if I first get ignored or dissed for suggesting such games as they're not "indie" enough, and then am being called an elitist and told to help out, while then the suggestions are being used anyways, it's quite insulting.

Now, to close this: Fuck off with this list. I'll  show you how it's done on my site. I'll show you how to make a REAL beginner's guide, and focus on freeware games (as my site's focus lays on that). For all the rest, fuck off with your so-called indie. It's a load of bull on here. Indie is when people make whatever they want, however they want it. The attitude towards that idea on here has shown BIIIG TIME on here. If a maker decides to make a game that looks as if it was published by a big label, it suddenly's less indie than something that looks like some kid tossed together? Fuck off! Keep to your own damn ideals, or define those ideals as how you guys behave

[Alex May]

wow

[skaldicpoet9]

Derek, I think you're missing the point here, as it's not only N vs. Akuji or such, but also crap like Staircase Dismount or such. The very core attitude here, seems to be that the less mainstream a game is, or the more hyped-up, the indie-er it is. It's shown amongst plenty of members. Guert actually hasn't shown this, and has shown the right mindset. About the helping out... I've suggested a pissload of games on here, and they've mostly been dissed. One of them (Transcendence) didn't make the list, but I saw it on the front page earlier today. It's good to see good games promoted instead of crappy piles of shit, but if I first get ignored or dissed for suggesting such games as they're not "indie" enough, and then am being called an elitist and told to help out, while then the suggestions are being used anyways, it's quite insulting.

Now, to close this: Fuck off with this list. I'll  show you how it's done on my site. I'll show you how to make a REAL beginner's guide, and focus on freeware games (as my site's focus lays on that). For all the rest, fuck off with your so-called indie. It's a load of bull on here. Indie is when people make whatever they want, however they want it. The attitude towards that idea on here has shown BIIIG TIME on here. If a maker decides to make a game that looks as if it was published by a big label, it suddenly's less indie than something that looks like some kid tossed together? Fuck off! Keep to your own damn ideals, or define those ideals as how you guys behave

Hmm, I thought indie games were just games that were made for the love of making games....regardless of what they, looked, played or were about?

[Derek]

I've suggested a pissload of games on here, and they've mostly been dissed. One of them (Transcendence) didn't make the list, but I saw it on the front page earlier today. It's good to see good games promoted instead of crappy piles of shit, but if I first get ignored or dissed for suggesting such games as they're not "indie" enough, and then am being called an elitist and told to help out, while then the suggestions are being used anyways, it's quite insulting.

And I quote:

These haven't been mentioned yet, but should've been:

Action
Chalk
Mr. Blocko
De Blob
Weaponed Head

Adventure games
The Infinity String
Fedora Spade
No-Action Jackson
Missing

Platformers
Akuji the Demon
Noitu Love & the Army of Grinning Darns

RPG
Ark 22
Guardian of Paradise
Sunset over Imdahl

Four of those games made it on the list of 50, and all of them were added to Guert's list.  Tale in the Desert (which you suggested) made it also.  Basically no one here has antagonized you about your game choices, only disagreed with you on occasion about which games they liked more.  As for Transcendence, I'm sorry I didn't remember you mentioning it first, but that's no reason to get so upset.  I found the link again from another source.

Now, to close this: Fuck off with this list. I'll  show you how it's done on my site. I'll show you how to make a REAL beginner's guide, and focus on freeware games (as my site's focus lays on that). For all the rest, fuck off with your so-called indie. It's a load of bull on here. Indie is when people make whatever they want, however they want it. The attitude towards that idea on here has shown BIIIG TIME on here. If a maker decides to make a game that looks as if it was published by a big label, it suddenly's less indie than something that looks like some kid tossed together? Fuck off! Keep to your own damn ideals, or define those ideals as how you guys behave

Geez.

Yeah, you say on one hand that indie is when people "make whatever they want, however they want it," and yet you start pissing matches about how much useless information you need to know to call yourself "indie."

And honestly, it doesn't matter at all, either way.  But I'm going to ban you because you've got the attitude of a spoiled 6-year-old and you're poisoning a thread that was supposed to be about something good for the entire community.  Some might argue that you started poisoning it as soon as the topic of N versus Akuji came up.

Bye.

[skaldicpoet9]

Derek, I think you're missing the point here, as it's not only N vs. Akuji or such, but also crap like Staircase Dismount or such

......It's good to see good games promoted instead of crappy piles of shit

......Indie is when people make whatever they want, however they want it

Yeah, I noticed that there was a bit of hypocrisy there....he says that "indie is when people make games whatever they want" but then goes on to say how Staircase Dismount is crap?

I read through the whole thread and the only "elitist" view I saw was Kon-Tiki's

I just don't see why name dropping is so integral to being "indie" if you don't know every name of every player in the MLB it doesn't mean that you don't like Baseball.....

[Guert]

Let's move on then...

[skaldicpoet9]

Let's move on then...

Sweet:)

Talking about games is way better then getting involved in these debates...

[Monothu]

Huzzah!  Hey there TIGoers!  You all suck!  Let's rant about this, shall we?

Right now, I'm searching, learning, looking everywhere for all the info I can find.

Not because their indies but because that each developer that makes a good, well created game brings the medium one step closer to a new level or creativity and respect. Indie developpers rarely have the luxury of having a team of designers working 40 hours a week thinking about how their game plays. 

Thrill as Guert fails to use the correct they're.  Grill as he misspells "developers".  Also, you aren't looking everywhere for information if you don't even know who made Cave Story.

Amen to that man

Useless post to that man

@Kon-tiki:

Dude, I'm not going to read through the thread, I've already read it once.

Lazy.

@Kon-tiki:

In any case, you're missing my main point, which is that Guert isn't pretending he knows everything, he's just trying to help.  He didn't create a list and then put it up on a blog saying it was a list of the best games, he started a thread and he asked people for ideas.  What is the problem here, exactly?

The problem is that he doesn't have nearly enough knowledge to moderate a list of games for beginners if he has the knowledge of one.  He needs to have the intelligence and the will power to say "Heck no, I'm not going to put Stair Dismount on this list!" instead of just saying "durs, i is teh puts ter star dismernt ons teh list cuz they telz mah so.  is not teh playz it befor er knowz anertahing abert it butz i duz whar mer telz mah so."

And yeah, I would say that if you enjoy indie games or you make your own game, you can call yourself "indie."  Why not?  What, you have to be an indie gaming historian with a PhD to use the label?

You should at least know who made Cave Story.

About the helping out... I've suggested a pissload of games on here, and they've mostly been dissed. One of them (Transcendence) didn't make the list, but I saw it on the front page earlier today. It's good to see good games promoted instead of crappy piles of shit, but if I first get ignored or dissed for suggesting such games as they're not "indie" enough, and then am being called an elitist and told to help out, while then the suggestions are being used anyways, it's quite insulting.

Really, that is insulting.  Kinda like how I never got credit for suggesting SOULFU and Obake when they appeared on the front page.  And how nobody cared when I posted the topic of SOULFU going free on the forums.  Well, nobody except Kon-tiki.  Man, I'm really starting to miss him.

Yeah, you say on one hand that indie is when people "make whatever they want, however they want it," and yet you start pissing matches about how much useless information you need to know to call yourself "indie."

I wouldn't call knowing who made a good game "useless information."  Knowledge such as that can be used to find other good games by that same person.

And honestly, it doesn't matter at all, either way.  But I'm going to ban you because you've got the attitude of a spoiled 6-year-old and you're poisoning a thread that was supposed to be about something good for the entire community.  Some might argue that you started poisoning it as soon as the topic of N versus Akuji came up.

Bye.

Now who's the elitist?  How about you shut your giant idiot mouth and get back to work on Aquaria, as that seems to be the only thing you're good at.  Oh wait.  You're not actually the one developing the game.  You just doodle a tiny bit for it every so often in your spare time while Alec does all the work, and you take all the credit.  And why does he take this crap from you?  Because you let him play moderator in your crappy little forum, even though he didn't actually do anything to deserve such a spot, though infinitely more deserving than you, Mr. Yu.

Derek, I think you're missing the point here, as it's not only N vs. Akuji or such, but also crap like Staircase Dismount or such

......It's good to see good games promoted instead of crappy piles of shit

......Indie is when people make whatever they want, however they want it

Yeah, I noticed that there was a bit of hypocrisy there....he says that "indie is when people make games whatever they want" but then goes on to say how Staircase Dismount is crap?

Stair Dismount is crap.  I don't see what that has to do with the definition of indie.

I read through the whole thread and the only "elitist" view I saw was Kon-Tiki's

What about Derek?

I just don't see why name dropping is so integral to being "indie" if you don't know every name of every player in the MLB it doesn't mean that you don't like Baseball.....

You should at least know who Pixel is.

Let's move on then...

Nuts to you, Guert.  You don't care at all that Kon-tiki was banned, all you care about is making friendships with stupid people like Hoawan who just spam the word "wow" over and over and do nothing else.  I don't even think you're really interested in the indie scene at all.  You just pretend to do so so that you can try to feel better about your filthy, lonely self.  You say you try to help, but is this helping?  Tearing such a great community as this apart in one massive flaming mess?

Now then that's my post, and I don't care if you dislike it.  Knowing Derek, I'll probably get banned from posting ever again and knowing Alec I'll probably get this split into another topic named "Trolling Brings Great Joy."

[Guert]

Hmm, true, I should definitively read my posts before I press the send button. Quite frankly, it's always been a big problem of mine. I didn't care much about my grammar but now in these days I post a lot and people (I believe) read them. I'll make sure I don't type my words incorrectly anymore. Thanks! (I'm not being sarcastic at all, simply realistic).
Later!

[Nate Kling]

I don't get it...You're mad because you didn't get credit? You're mad because Guert is making a list of indie games? I don't think you need to know the name of the developers to enjoy the games or to recommend the games that you enjoy.  If you don't like the list dont look at it.  I don't understand why you are so mad.  I think someone wants a little attention..  by the way, thanks for all your work Guert!

[handCraftedRadio]

Guys, stop this. Derek's wrists are going to get sore from slammin' the ban hammer so much.