Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1411276 Posts in 69323 Topics- by 58380 Members - Latest Member: bob1029

March 28, 2024, 12:26:30 PM

Need hosting? Check out Digital Ocean
(more details in this thread)
TIGSource ForumsCommunityDevLogsthe Game (by Graham)
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6
Print
Author Topic: the Game (by Graham)  (Read 11557 times)
baconman
Level 10
*****


Design Guru


View Profile WWW
« Reply #40 on: June 19, 2013, 08:32:56 PM »

Now, talking with more neurotypical people you could be right; but going into a game development forum and assuming there's "too much theory above our heads" and that there's no use in sharing or rambling about it is kind of nonsensical. And even counter-productive towards a "think tank" structure of game development that you appear to be trying with this project.

We can't help build your thing if you're keeping all the parts of it to yourself.

For example:

You've got Poker AI to 75% completion. Okay. How it works *could* be irrelevant - but you know what isn't? How does this AI factor on the larger scope of your gaming project (assuming of course, it's not a Poker Tournament simulator)?


Your checklist above includes a lot of stuff I'm working towards in longer terms (see iMAGE Zero siggy-link/DevLog; where I DO dare to go into tons of logical detail - which not everyone may follow, but you very possibly could).

I'll admit; for now this includes breaking my project down into Rock Band-esque components (like how it's a combination of Amplitude/Guitar Hero/Karaoke Revolution), and even downscaling those to one-or-few-man levels of execution while I try to "chink in" gaps in my programming know-hows.

...In between wrestling with real life responsiblities and relationships, which at times feels like being six different people all at once. But that's a complete tangent, now.

I'm not saying you have to divulge this AI or how/why it works. Just where it factors into your project, and where we can take it (as a tool) into consideration.
Logged

baconman
Level 10
*****


Design Guru


View Profile WWW
« Reply #41 on: June 19, 2013, 09:07:43 PM »

That said, here's a list of works in progress (and theory) I can contribute to such a project, since it coincides so much with what I'm working on anyways:

- An 80-frame flexible spriting system that will work with just about any format of 2D game; and a methodology of animating them accordingly. This includes the kinds of punching/kicking and special moves you see in fighting games (neutral/crouch/aerial too), running/dashing, rolling, four-directional movement, weapons-wielding or firearms-aiming (one and two-handed), and a system of appropriate hit reactions. Only trick is, it may involve some abstract art style, so that left/right limbs can be illustrated "interchangably," and the hit reactions may use sprite rotation a little liberally.

- A firm-enough understanding of animation principles to successfully implement that kind of thing, give or take a layer of "blur effects" (which, let's face it; will probably be useful as offensive hitboxes anyhow).

- Twenty to twenty-four character design "styles" that encompass physical likenesses and fighting styles from various SF/KoF/Tekken influences, MegaMan robot masters (and special weapons/possible AI thereof; maybe even color/tint schemes), and personal/situational comparisons to popular (or infamous) gaming protagonists.

- Plenty of research and development (and theory) into mishmashing PGC with genuine crafted level design and neighboring-area cause and effects in mind.

- Experience in creating content for 2D fighting game engines (Street Fighter-like, KoF-like, Killer Instinct-like, Marvel-like), musical game engines (like DDR/Rock Band, and plenty of the music theory that goes into that sort of thing), coproducing a PGC Metroidlike (editing code of and discussing design with a lead programmer).

- Tons of crap you've already read from me in the Design forum; so you know I know what I'm talking about - not just "ideas," but ones readily implemented in capable programming logic.

- Schemes for dynamically generating plots, music, and bosses, by assembling components thereof. Maybe even settings as well (Medieval Sci-Fi? Steampunk Samurai?), but that may involve some graphical trickery above my head alone.


What I hope to take away from working on a project like this:

- "Chinking" in gaps in my programming skills/logic, and learning more object-oriented stuff and applicable trigonometry; so that I can take programming logic in my designs/plans and actually apply that crap more successfully.

- A fleshed-out logical workflow of where to start and arrange a project such as this. Game Maker is very capable; but the way it handles assets practically requires a top-down approach - you can't reference an object that doesn't exist, and object can't really "exist" until it's represented...

- Certainly improved methodology towards AI production (more like implementation thereof, than design), both semi-simplistic and advanced.

- Similar contributional input towards the things I'm trying to mash out, to become a better programmer/producer and not just an abstract designer-slash-code/script-editor.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 09:14:02 PM by baconman » Logged

Graham-
Level 10
*****


ftw


View Profile
« Reply #42 on: June 20, 2013, 05:04:57 AM »

Just show me some of your game pictures. I love pictures, even a simple draft title. Or perhaps you can show some battle/AI system references from Ytube you like. I want eye candies. It's been months. Droop

It's been 6 years. You guys have only known about it for months.

I know. I'm coming. You'll have to wait. (The last 2-3 months I've been focused entirely on my paid job, trying to make the transition smooth. I'm only just now coming back to this).
Logged
Graham-
Level 10
*****


ftw


View Profile
« Reply #43 on: June 20, 2013, 05:12:57 AM »

Now, talking with more neurotypical people you could be right; but going into a game development forum and assuming there's "too much theory above our heads" and that there's no use in sharing or rambling about it is kind of nonsensical. And even counter-productive towards a "think tank" structure of game development that you appear to be trying with this project.

We can't help build your thing if you're keeping all the parts of it to yourself.

For example:

You've got Poker AI to 75% completion. Okay. How it works *could* be irrelevant - but you know what isn't? How does this AI factor on the larger scope of your gaming project (assuming of course, it's not a Poker Tournament simulator)?


Your checklist above includes a lot of stuff I'm working towards in longer terms (see iMAGE Zero siggy-link/DevLog; where I DO dare to go into tons of logical detail - which not everyone may follow, but you very possibly could).

I'll admit; for now this includes breaking my project down into Rock Band-esque components (like how it's a combination of Amplitude/Guitar Hero/Karaoke Revolution), and even downscaling those to one-or-few-man levels of execution while I try to "chink in" gaps in my programming know-hows.

...In between wrestling with real life responsiblities and relationships, which at times feels like being six different people all at once. But that's a complete tangent, now.

I'm not saying you have to divulge this AI or how/why it works. Just where it factors into your project, and where we can take it (as a tool) into consideration.

I don't refuse to share my ideas. Check my profile, and look at my post history. If anything I spend more time discussing theory than nearly everyone here, to the point of being very annoying to a few, unnamed, members. I reference my poker AI many times, and how it relates. There are least 100 posts focused around AI details specifically, many very long.

You guys are the best. If you have any questions about the AI, feel free to ask. I just feel like... I've discussed it a whole lot already, you know? Now the best thing to do is to show, especially considering since I can only work weekends now, plus the few hours I steal from work a week to catch up on game news and post here.

No, no poker simulator Wink. Check out this: http://coldtheory.blogspot.ca/2012_09_01_archive.html. I wrote it a long time ago to help explain things to Gimmy Tilbert. It introduces some of the theory necessary for generating stories. The "AI" is just the machine that makes that theory work in every case, very fast. So if you read that and have detailed technical questions then I will answer them. Or if you have any questions I will answer them. I'm not trying to be reclusive, by any means. Besides, when there is a prototype, we'll all discuss until we're blue in the faces in love with each other and ourselves. Whoa.

The second you guys can _play_ something then I'll be back with a force, I imagine. Until then I'm still trying to figure out this whole working for a living thing, and making games on the side. It's not like I have anything else to do in my spare time Smiley.

--

also: http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=26827.0. That thread is just me talking about generated stories. Lots of AI stuff in there.

--

ps. It feels very good to know that some people sort-of care, even at the "design" phase.
Logged
Graham-
Level 10
*****


ftw


View Profile
« Reply #44 on: June 20, 2013, 05:56:13 AM »

Also, the comment about AI refs, on youtube and such, I will get to sooner. I didn't really consider that.... I have a huge list, I suppose, that is kind of spread out everywhere. I don't want to just randomly throw things up. So as I gel the design, into one entity, I'll keep a list of the things that I think are representative of what I am trying to do, pictures and videos and such. And I will post them here. I will also post them on a site, maybe, that updates with the "current" rep.

Anyway, that will take some time too. But it can come sooner, and that's nice.

For now you can check this out:

. This is one of my favourite boss battles in Grandia II, a game I pull a lot of battle system design inspiration from.

Grandia II is very elegant with its battles. You have to consider character position, speed, the speed of enemy attacks, _who_ they are attacking (because you can check), how to counter/cancel enemies, and so on. You have to think of your party as a team, and the battle flows this way and that. FF battles flow too, more so in the older games than the newer ones - yes, really - but Grandia II made it more apparent without taking out the depth. Much of the FF flow comes from the added speed. Grandia II does it more slowly, going towards the Chess side of the scale (but obviously not coming close to it).



. Here is sacrifice, in an earlier level. In this game you are a wizard inside an RTS. So it's like a top-down/3rd-person aciony game inside an RTS. You are the general on the field.

I like it because it is solid, and innovative, and kind of broken, and really hard to learn, and hard to understand well enough to see the depth. So it is a cult hit, with critics going crazy in a lot of ways, but was a commercial not-very-successful title.

You control the map with towers that you warp in on mana fountains, that act as your natural resource. When you build a tower you can then warp to it, defend it more easily, and deny enemies from mining mana from it. You use mana to cast spells and get creatures. What is cool is that when a creature dies it leaves a soul. You need souls to make creatures, and mana. But the souls are the real rare thing.

More expensive creatures cost more souls. Both teams usually start with the same number of souls. When you kill an an enemy creature you CANNOT get their soul. Only the enemy sorcerer (general) can. So when a battle breaks out and everyone die, both players get all of their own souls, recharge mana at base, then attack again, keeping the teams even.

You can't even kill other sorcerers, only incapacitate them. To kill you have to "kill" them, then go to their total home base and cast a spell that takes a long time to work and is easy to interrupt.

So the way the game is played is by taking control of the map, winning battles, that only _stall_ the enemy, then taking more strategic points, or setting up for another engagement in an important area. If you can kill a monster, and the enemy sorcerer is "dead," then you have a short time window to "harvest" that soul, by casting a spell, that takes a long time. That spell summons a creature that "harvests" the enemy soul, by waiting around for a while, the marching back to your base with the creature in toe, to _sacrifice_ it and rip its soul to pieces to refashion it in your color.

When you are harvesting souls your guys are in serious danger of being attacked. If a harvester - which is very weak - is attacked in the process, the enemy creature respawns immediately as an enemy creature. Shit! So you have to be very careful. You get a small edge, that protect it, then get another.

Also, the bigger your army and territory gets, the harder it is to defend. Interesting Wink. The biggest downside is that many games are 30% conflict, then 70% detail work as you cleanup, being very tedious. But if you are crazy, like me in my old age, you can play faster and get risky, and always be on the edge of your seat.

A lot of problems with this game, with many monsters be useless in some cases, and there being too many choices, or levels not offering enough large variety and so on. The missions aren't designed well enough to make good use of the mechanics. The game is a classic, but was designed with many ideas but not nearly enough tuning. So it's good if you have the time and patience, but not good in many other cases.

I love the idea of every decision in a game having some kind of strong long-term consequence, and having it all connect together. That makes the game feel very flexible. I also like the mixing of genres.

I also like having to warp around and try to figure out what's happening. What's cool is that the towers' most important facet is their ability to let you warp to them, keeping your territory "yours." So vision - i.e. knowledge - is a resource that can be gained through action play, and by thinking strategically. In Starcraft you can look anywhere you want inside your zone, but in Sacrifice you must travel there first, otherwise you have to look in the distance, so sight lines play a role too, instead of just being a statistic.

I love SC as well too. Not slamming it.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 06:15:53 AM by Graham. » Logged
mychii
Level 0
***


View Profile
« Reply #45 on: June 20, 2013, 10:03:01 AM »

Now we're getting somewhere, thanks for the reference, I liked and played Grandia as well. Look, for me, no matter what the result of this game is, which I believe you'd want it to be so great and so do we, you can always fix it. That's why there are teasers, pre-alpha, alpha, close/open beta, trailers, patches, updates, sequels, etc. That's all I can say.
Logged
Graham-
Level 10
*****


ftw


View Profile
« Reply #46 on: June 20, 2013, 10:15:51 AM »

We can always fix anything. That's why prototypes are important. I'm not holding off in any way. The design is really just that huge. I _LOVE_ prototypes too.
Logged
Graham-
Level 10
*****


ftw


View Profile
« Reply #47 on: June 20, 2013, 10:35:17 AM »

And I'm glad you liked it. That was just some random stuff. I'm not really sure how to respond when someone asks, "what is your game about?" Isn't it about everything? Mine is. That's kind of the point.

I've been writing about my game in some way or another in every single post I've written here. I always link everything back to my own work in some way. In this devlog I've just focused on a few over-the-horizon ideas because that's what my mind was focused on, and it fit the idea of a "devlog" in the first place, so I figured why not.

I don't have any ideas in reserve. Everything is right here. All of my love for Mario, Zelda, the old FFs, and the new. It's all here, all of it. I don't have anything else. Literally, I am trying to shove every single game idea into one product, and just shaving off the crap. So yeah, you only ever do 0.001% of your ideas in a game, because ideas take time, but most people don't use their best ideas. They use 5 great ideas and 100 mediocre ones, then leave the other 35 great ideas they have in the basket somewhere. I am not doing that. This is everything. I don't have anything else. I don't want to make anything else. I want to finish this game and die. That's my life right there.

Logged
Graham-
Level 10
*****


ftw


View Profile
« Reply #48 on: June 22, 2013, 01:39:43 PM »

That said, here's a list of works in progress (and theory) I can contribute to such a project, since it coincides so much with what I'm working on anyways:

....


Baconman, I always appreciate your insight and feedback.

I don't need any code, because I'll be doing everything from scratch - coding is my one professionally trained skill out of the lot (especially 'architecture'). But I do need everything else, or at least would like it.

I know I want something "pluggable." So there will be many ways for 'outsiders' to contribute logical systems and the like. But I don't know how coding might be shared. For now, in my head, the project works more like this:
  1. I do all the programming and major asset creation, animation, sfx, music, and so on.
  2. Everyone else contributes to the design.

There are a lot of problems to be solved. Certainly, as I grow - I've been wanting a company since I was 3-and-a-half - I will include people in every single detail, until I don't have to think about them anymore, even though I will.

People are really great, and I don't know how this is going to go. I'm kind of going to play it by ear and see how things develop. Obviously the biggest goal right now is to have something playable, and 99% of that workload is on me. Then when it exists it will be a million times easier to have discussions about it. I've learned the major lessons I've needed to learn about group game design for now, to continue forward as I am.

Sometimes people don't really understand what I mean by "AI." To give an example my poker AI is many thousands of lines of code. I don't know the actual number. I'm sure 95% of it is garbage. But it is still a lot of stuff. And by many thousands I mean a number much higher than that. And that AI is just the beginning. Most of the design is data driven - not in the code. And the game's plans for the AI are many magnitudes larger. Sharing the 'AI' is like sharing 'my plans for life.' AI is not a thing that you just know. It is like saying 'art,' or 'business.'

I have a great sense for 'relationships.' I am going to show you my sense for 'relationships.' Tomorrow I'm going to use my skill in 'relationships' to make that girl fall in love with me. Oh, how are you going to do that? Tell me the secret. What do you mean by 'relationship skills?' ... ugh.

I'm going to use my 'game design' to balance Starcraft. Oh, tell me how? In 5 sentences. It took me my whole life to learn how. What does that question even mean? Tell me how.... Tell me how to be you.

I will write the AI one step at a time, for many, many years. Then 10 years from now someone will go, "oh now I get it." No you don't. You never will. You don't 'get' AI. You just practice it. Then you get better. Eventually you might be great. But your knowledge will always be unique.

No one 'gets' writing, or movie-making. There are a class of skills that is 20 million miles long that fit inside the bubble called 'AI.' Just for some reason people in the "industry" don't seem to understand that as a default. AI is often thought of as a small set of algorithms. Once you know them then you know 'AI.' Read the book on women, 50 pages long, and then you get them. What?

Do you see what I am saying? This is not to you Baconman, just to everyone who asks, and the various people who have been frustrated by my apparent lack of clarity surrounding 'AI' and its applications to game design. Every time I talk about AI I am explaining something new, not because I'm unwilling to divulge the secret, but because literally when I mean 'AI' I mean all of the 20 thousand thoughts I have had about the subject. I mean all of it in total.

"Tell me how to write your AI Graham." "No?" Yes, no. I don't know what that means. Tell me how to live. Tell me how to be smart. Tell me how to sing, or dance, or cook like a professional. I don't know. Go read a book, practice, and ask lots of questions. Then repeat, and stop complaining. Smiley. Love you guys.

Peace. !
« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 01:45:06 PM by Graham. » Logged
Graham-
Level 10
*****


ftw


View Profile
« Reply #49 on: June 22, 2013, 02:31:14 PM »

Another thing I want to say. This project started a long time ago, in my head, even before it was a game. One of its first priorities was to solve the problem of group collaboration. People basically suck at it, in my eyes, and I thought I could make a big difference that way.

Basically I want this game to act as a model for how to make games, or just for how to work together. And it won't be that way because I am awesome, even though I am, but because everyone is going to contribute in their own way. There needs to be a large enough group in which everyone is heard, so the basis of a game company (a good one) can be defined.

What is the process 10 random people need to follow, from beginning to end, to create their best work possible, given some set of time and financial constraints (etc)? That's the biggest question this project seeks to answer, more so than what makes a great game.

All of my designs cycle around that idea.

Logged
baconman
Level 10
*****


Design Guru


View Profile WWW
« Reply #50 on: June 25, 2013, 03:05:30 PM »

Well, how I kind of see this unfolding?

A Classic Zelda-like structure where there's *some* direct progression (like Levels 3/4/5), but open in the order you take with them. Each of these "chapters" may have some coinciding/confilcting characters involved, and your relationship with them, their relationship with each other, and the "side" you find yourself on in conflicts between them will change, deterministically by the order you take these on in, and whether you're successful or not in certain optional battles or puzzles.

This also determines who will be your friends and your foes in the overarching, game-closing "Level 9." (Or your game's equivalent thereof.)


The levels' actual contents might vary as well, determined by the more linear nature of a story...

1. Here is the hero.
2. Here is the enemy. Now you've been threatened!
3. Chase the enemy! Oh, they got away...
4. Continuing the journey, deeping the character involvement.
5. The enemy returns!
6. Disc One Final Dungeon... and THE TWIST!
7. Hero returns from defeat.
8. The build-up, and the hardest part of the game here.
9. The epic showdown!!

^ This is like, JRPG 101. Now, couple this with free-form level ordering, and you can find yourself aligned with any of 3-4 parties, at odds with a different one, a geometric combination of different twists regarding those outcomes; a grip of characters you can fail or succeed to rescue (which affects that plot); and an always epic showdown where everything comes to a head - but with wildly different outcomes depending on level ordering and victories.
____________________

Oh yes... and a slight "fork in the road" approach in the level sub-design that seperates earlier "easy" routes from later, intrinsically harder ones. So that, let's say, having 3 or 6 levels completed will forcibly detour you to the harder pathways, which will only be accessible once you have some abilities first.

The idea there being that you never get 100% of the powers in the game, but going in different ways will give you different power sets that then change the entire tactical experience of the game itself!
Logged

Graham-
Level 10
*****


ftw


View Profile
« Reply #51 on: June 25, 2013, 03:09:52 PM »

Hahahah. Close, but no cigar.

But I like your ideas Baconman. I like your ideas.

I love Zelda though. Think more like expressive mechanics. Imagine if you had the freedom of Mario's direct control, but instead of expressing a solution to a platforming problem you're expressing abstract ideas, like those contained within language, while fighting enemies that swarm around you, with a partner, and another, one AI and one real.

Logged
baconman
Level 10
*****


Design Guru


View Profile WWW
« Reply #52 on: June 25, 2013, 03:32:11 PM »

So. We have 10 levels - one acting as a hub/overworld area that's fun to fluff about and explore in; and 9 castles, dungeons, what have you.

Those castles/dungeons are divided in allegiance with 3 factions, each with 3 other core characters. The first level you enter (and complete) determines who your allies are. This created blockades knocking out the "easy path" of the other two areas related to that faction, but opens up one "friendly functional one," with an escape/warp point.

The second one you complete then determines who your enemies are. That creates the "easy path" blockade in the other two levels associated with that party; and opens another function room, but this time with a miniboss, instead.

The remaining faction becomes something of a rival/anti-hero role to your friends and you. Completing this third level will seal off the last of the "easy pathways" (for their group), and provide you with a physical ability to progress to the harder pathways. This takes the "function" room of this party's, and makes more puzzle-like rooms where you can help or hinder this third anti-hero party. (One will help you if you help them later, one will turn around and backstab you and/or attack you on the spot, and the third will act like a reluctant love interest/rival to one in your allies.)

As you complete the second wave of the bunch, this will remove helpful gameplay mechanics from the levels, or produce more obstructive ones, complimentary to the powers you get in them.

So let's say you complete the second zone of "Faction A" this way - the harder pathway will have a weapon or ability and a related gameplay mechanic, which will then be added to the remaining castle/dungeon related to "Faction A." Now you have the harder level path, coupled with the deeper gameplay. Wink

All of these last 3 will then add some last element of depth to the other, making the eighth the hardest one, which will equip you with your best ability. Then, armed with whatever "ultimate ability" (of 9) you get, you can thrash your way through the final level; and the faction that it's associated with will then determine the overall outcome of your story. Globals associated with the minibosses and puzzle rooms will then determine final details for the character-to-character outcomes.


EDIT: Well, at least this gives a good indicator of the kind of level I'm thinking on.

Okay, I get what you mean by "expressive mechanics," and that I fully agree with. I'm just discussing the overall structure of how to take these expressive mechanics, and place/implement them in a gameplay system that combines the flexible, Zelda-like structure with the fundamental storytelling structure, so that the results of playing it differently will generate the kinds of dynamic plots your other thread discusses making.

It just takes 9 of each "type" of chapter (depending on the order you take the levels in) to produce that dynamic plot; and really, only 3 of each depth of mechanic, but it will allow for 9 of those as well.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2013, 03:57:12 PM by baconman » Logged

ink.inc
Guest
« Reply #53 on: June 25, 2013, 03:46:14 PM »

are you okay
Logged
Graham-
Level 10
*****


ftw


View Profile
« Reply #54 on: June 25, 2013, 03:47:18 PM »

no. no I am not. ... Smiley
Logged
baconman
Level 10
*****


Design Guru


View Profile WWW
« Reply #55 on: June 25, 2013, 03:58:56 PM »

no. no I am not. ... Smiley

Ninja troll post I saw tells me he's entitled to feeling this way. Someone's giving Graham. a hard time today. /not me Sad
Logged

Graham-
Level 10
*****


ftw


View Profile
« Reply #56 on: June 25, 2013, 06:05:57 PM »

The price of being different.

I wear the badge like any other. People are afraid of change. It's that simple.

TBH, I feel more inspired than anything. The question always was, when am I ready to say what I _really_ feel? I always knew it would create conflict, and we are just getting started. But, people will calm down a little when they play my prototypes. TIGers may not understand a good theory thrown to the face, but they sure do get a good game.
Logged
baconman
Level 10
*****


Design Guru


View Profile WWW
« Reply #57 on: June 25, 2013, 09:24:43 PM »

 Embarrassed Oh Graham.!! Darling, does that mean what I think it does? Kiss

 Cheesy
Logged

Graham-
Level 10
*****


ftw


View Profile
« Reply #58 on: June 26, 2013, 02:08:06 AM »

Fuck. Maybe.
Logged
Graham-
Level 10
*****


ftw


View Profile
« Reply #59 on: June 28, 2013, 12:50:16 PM »

I was the kid who didn't talk to you because you were off talking to stupid kids.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6
Print
Jump to:  

Theme orange-lt created by panic