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November 23, 2014, 10:44:22 AM
TIGSource ForumsPlayerGamesfemfreq tropes vs women is out
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Author Topic: femfreq tropes vs women is out  (Read 6400 times)
C.A. Silbereisen
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« Reply #80 on: March 08, 2013, 10:43:53 AM »

isnt the amazing atheist the guy who stuffed a banana in his ass
yes
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« Reply #81 on: March 08, 2013, 10:59:25 AM »

isnt the amazing atheist the guy who stuffed a banana in his ass
please click my link. thank you.
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Gimym JIMBERT
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« Reply #82 on: March 08, 2013, 11:03:32 AM »

The thing is her series looks like it will also brought back forgotten good examples and might actually raise overall female characters profile with thing to look for as example.

More than highlighting the bad I believe it will also highlight the good.

Definitely I would like a much broader analysis as a follow up, ie character and story pattern in game and how we can evolve them. But that's not what she had been backed to do.
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ILLOGICAL, random guy on internet, do not trust (lelebæcülo dum borobürükiss)
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« Reply #83 on: March 08, 2013, 11:25:43 AM »

I've never played starfox adventures and I'm glad because I never got to see fox as a bumbling idiot.
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« Reply #84 on: March 08, 2013, 11:29:29 AM »

You just describe the entire game plot really!
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ILLOGICAL, random guy on internet, do not trust (lelebæcülo dum borobürükiss)
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« Reply #85 on: March 08, 2013, 12:41:51 PM »

However, I was quite disgusted at the disabled ratings and comments on YouTube. Very immature and insecure. She wants everybody to listen to her but doesn't one anyone else to speak. I understand that a video like this would probably invite misogynistic twats to insult her but that's just pretty much the Internet in a nutshell. If you get on it and make a statement, you don't pay mind to trolls.

A youtube comment section filled with nothing but bigotry and misogyny has no value. I'm glad those people aren't given a place to display their opinions to the world.
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« Reply #86 on: March 08, 2013, 12:43:48 PM »

it's not like there isn't other place to discuss it
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ILLOGICAL, random guy on internet, do not trust (lelebæcülo dum borobürükiss)
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« Reply #87 on: March 08, 2013, 01:16:38 PM »

Came across this in a similar discussion. It's worth a read.
http://weeklysift.com/2012/09/10/the-distress-of-the-privileged/
Quote
Once you grasp the concept of privileged distress, you’ll see it everywhere: the rich feel “punished” by taxes; whites believe they are the real victims of racism; employers’ religious freedom is threatened when they can’t deny contraception to their employees; English-speakers resent bilingualism — it goes on and on.
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« Reply #88 on: March 08, 2013, 01:17:09 PM »

the only way i can imagine why anyone would think to bring up samus is because they interpreted the whole video to mean "nintendo games are sexist"

Well at least you are trying to think and imagine other possibilities instead of just declaring anything and everything that does not align to your world view as "dum".  It's a good start.  Keep it up and with some practice it's entirely possible you may develop an open mind instead of the shallow victim one you are presenting.  This entire video is a trope itself, "I don't like how things are so I'll complain about them instead of trying to do something about it, someone ELSE should fix it, I'm not able to fix it I can just send a message and try to get someone more capable to do so".  The video is a message for someone else to fix the problem, much like princess peach sending a message so someone ELSE to rescue her.  If you don't like the situation make and fund games that you do like instead of trying to make everyone else conform to your view.

i'm laughing at you
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« Reply #89 on: March 08, 2013, 01:37:39 PM »

I think this is relevant. You might not like this guy but whatever.

This was a big topic of discussion in Sweden a couple of weeks ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfkS9YS_T0k

comment threads. free speech. playing victim. grasping at straws.
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« Reply #90 on: March 08, 2013, 02:21:15 PM »

I liked the video.

I thought it was pretty basic, but that's okay. I see it as an introduction to the series, as well as for those who were not familiar with the problem or video games in general. And believe me, stuff said in this video is news to many people, even game developers. I'm a member of some AAA-oriented communities, and the notion that maybe games could start being more mature and eschew old flawed tropes is still something heavily questioned there.

What I like the most about this video, is that it speaks about a difficult subject in an accessible and fairly non-confrontational way. I'm used to this debate being all "You ugly feminist cunt!" vs "You chauvinistic male pig!" with the original point lost between the insults, while her take on it is mostly analytical and not dismissive of the medium. It's also clear she did her homework.

actually there were a few sexist things about the nes games she mentioned that i thought she missed, and probably should have been mentioned; it felt to me like if she was more familiar with those games she would have noticed even worse things

two examples:

in double dragon, she mentioned the girlfriend being punched and taken away at the start of the game with the panties showing. but what she didn't mention was at the end the game, the two brothers have to *fight to the death* over her, and the winner of that battle between brothers gets to keep her

in ghosts and goblins, she mentioned it being an example of damsel in distress, but didn't mention that during the ending credits, it tells you the princess's measurements next to her name (breast/waist/hips, in centimeters)

so the video kind of made me wonder how thorough the research was and how familiar she is with nes games, since she pointed out only the stuff that people already knew, and didn't point out the worse stuff that is slightly less commonly known. there's a lot worse on the nes than what she mentioned, she only mentioned the obvious things; i think it'd have been more effective of a video if she had brought more attention to the lesser known things

(though there's always future videos i guess)
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 02:26:50 PM by Paul Eres » Logged

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« Reply #91 on: March 08, 2013, 02:31:27 PM »

I think this is relevant. You might not like this guy but whatever.

This was a big topic of discussion in Sweden a couple of weeks ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfkS9YS_T0k

comment threads. free speech. playing victim. grasping at straws.

top rated comment (lol):

Quote
I always find it odd why we MEN have to ask WOMEN out. We MEN have to spend the money. WE are expected to do all the heavy lifting of relationships. And WOMEN complain that they don't have a say? Jesus fucking alah in the face.

fyi the amazing atheist is an idiot and a scumbag
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« Reply #92 on: March 08, 2013, 02:47:37 PM »

Quote
It's interesting that she mentions how these games are made to "play into the adolescent males power narrative", when in fact the damsel in distress trope does nothing more than portray a man willing to sacrifice everything in his life in order to save a woman. Whatever the male protagonist does, his entire motive and ambition is to go through immense trials, in order to protect and save a woman he finds desireable because this is the only way he can define himself. And at risk to his own life. It portrays men as disempowered, in that their only task is to win the approval of women, who are the final judges of their journey - a road covered with pitfalls and dangerous trials. In fact, it is a journey to become a "real man" by the standards that women impose, and most of the time you will die in the attempt - but that is perfectly OK.

It could as easily be interpreted from the male point of view, that men are encouraged to jump through hoops and over barrells, in order to win their hand. She is the one who has the final say, and if you don't make it then you're a loser. It's a general theme that says men are encouraged to define themselves in only the terms our society imprints on us. If you can't get the woman then you're not a "real man".

interesting point of view. source

I think whether you agree with this guy or Anita's point of view, we can all agree that 'Damsels in Distress' is an overused trope that isn't particularly interesting and we can all live without.
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« Reply #93 on: March 08, 2013, 02:53:23 PM »

actually there were a few sexist things about the nes games she mentioned that i thought she missed, and probably should have been mentioned; it felt to me like if she was more familiar with those games she would have noticed even worse things
looks like we have a fake gamer grrl on our hands amirite

Or maybe she's pointing out examples of the titular trope and not every trope at once
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« Reply #94 on: March 08, 2013, 03:11:55 PM »

Quote
It's interesting that she mentions how these games are made to "play into the adolescent males power narrative", when in fact the damsel in distress trope does nothing more than portray a man willing to sacrifice everything in his life in order to save a woman. Whatever the male protagonist does, his entire motive and ambition is to go through immense trials, in order to protect and save a woman he finds desireable because this is the only way he can define himself. And at risk to his own life. It portrays men as disempowered, in that their only task is to win the approval of women, who are the final judges of their journey - a road covered with pitfalls and dangerous trials. In fact, it is a journey to become a "real man" by the standards that women impose, and most of the time you will die in the attempt - but that is perfectly OK.

It could as easily be interpreted from the male point of view, that men are encouraged to jump through hoops and over barrells, in order to win their hand. She is the one who has the final say, and if you don't make it then you're a loser. It's a general theme that says men are encouraged to define themselves in only the terms our society imprints on us. If you can't get the woman then you're not a "real man".

interesting point of view. source

I think whether you agree with this guy or Anita's point of view, we can all agree that 'Damsels in Distress' is an overused trope that isn't particularly interesting and we can all live without.

she doesn't have the "final say" or "impose" any "standards," oh gee peach must be deliberatly getting kidnapped a billion times to make mario do tedious things and win her. looking at the comment thread, it's surprising to see mrm talking about gender role (singular) and continuously failing to see the point of feminism.
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« Reply #95 on: March 08, 2013, 03:18:48 PM »

anyway this is all you need to see from that thread. womanhood allows her to get kidnapped, privilege. thankfully not everyone there is stupid
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« Reply #96 on: March 08, 2013, 03:27:37 PM »

@schoq - i don't think she's fake, just not an obsessive nes player; most male gamers on this forum also wouldn't know the examples i used either, due to being too young or for other reasons (maybe they had a genesis instead)

(as an aside it's interesting how most of the early damsel in distress stuff comes from nintendo rather than sega. i can think of a few but most of the princesses that needed rescuing in the 80s and early 90s were on the nes and snes rather than the genesis)

also, i think the examples i named are relevant to damsel in distress, because they're specific things that happen when you rescue the damsel...
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« Reply #97 on: March 08, 2013, 03:32:08 PM »

I don't think you understand the point of his comment eva.

his point is that the tropes hurt both genders, and not just women. the video explicit omits the effects these tropes have on the male gender. which does alienate some viewers, unfortunately.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZueOCLGt1tw this video here also addresses some of the stereotyping that affects both men and women.

I think it's a very valid and interesting view-point. and I don't think anyone should underlook the impact various tropes have on both genders. no use getting defensive and calling them stupid, and cherry picking individual statements. look at the whole picture.
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« Reply #98 on: March 08, 2013, 03:40:22 PM »

you didn't understand! you didn't understand! stupid fuck. i didnt say it doesn't hurt men, in fact i believe masculine stereotypes are harmful. this is some elementary feminist shit. i simply pointed out parts of his post that were wrong. quit being condescending.
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« Reply #99 on: March 08, 2013, 03:44:41 PM »

Not going to bother talking to you if you aren't going to try being intelligent, and instead just resort to name calling and mud slinging.

I feel there's a distinct lack in contrast to her arguments, which is an obvious result of bias. Impossible to avoid bias in this kind of subject, so it's nice to hear from people on both sides of the argument as well as those totally against it. I might add, these posts I'm quoting seem to generally agree with her, but come to different conclusions on exactly why they find these tropes bad.

Here's another good point of view:
Quote
I find her analysis of Peach's position flawed, as it is entirely based on the Patriarchical theory narrative that men are in power and men possess women as property. While it is true the evil villain, Bowser, aims to possess Princess Peach, Mario merely fulfills his gender role as the selfless rescuer. Peach is mario's, and the rest of Mushroom Kingdoms, Monarch. Peach is not his possession, merely a member, the most important member, of his "team" and like any "good" man, he does his duty of helping his team when it is in trouble, much in the same way he is willing to rescue toad the countless number of times he gets caught.

and another one:
Quote
The woman is portrayed as defenseless and helpless, while the man must risk his life to save her. There is definitely a negative stereotype in both instances. My main criticism revolves around this, and that is that she doesn't address the similar stereotype against men. I guess this could be explained, if you wanted, by the fact that it's Tropes Vs. Women and not Vs. People, but if the goal is to truly reduce/eliminate that sort of stuff you need to make sure it is equally expressed that sexism to either gender is bad, and equally bad.

Some people will surely try to say that the negatives to women are worse, or vice versa, but it really doesn't matter. Both are negative and both aren't helpful, so they should both be dealt with.

tl;dr: Displays stereotypes of both genders, is equally bad, and the video only addresses one side. That's the only criticism that really stuck out to me.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 03:49:45 PM by allen » Logged
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