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998225 Posts in 39148 Topics- by 30559 Members - Latest Member: TinyAngryCrab

April 18, 2014, 07:39:53 AM
TIGSource ForumsPlayerGamesfemfreq tropes vs women is out
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Author Topic: femfreq tropes vs women is out  (Read 4073 times)
AshfordPride
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« Reply #135 on: March 08, 2013, 05:54:28 PM »

the kitschiest corners of human expression tend to be the biggest though and also the ones that are most reflective of the values of mainstream society.

Are we talking about art or beer commercials here?  I don't know how to respond.


Thank you Alec S, my quest is finally over.  I CAN FINALLY REST NOW THAT MY HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION HAS BEEN ANSWERED.

Did you know that Blue Moon is brewed by the same people who make Miller and Coors?  Now, why oh why, if they have figured out the secret to making a good beer commercial do they still insist on making commercials where, oh, say, a monkey uses a woman's cleavage to open a beer while a crowd of handpicked cool looking eighteen to twenty-fours cheer?  

There are a lot of parts to consider when answering this.  And doing so might take a long time and detract from the entire original point that this thread was about.  But I'm sure nobody minds...

The ad seeks to establish an identity for Blue Moon.  It's a beer that's being made by someone.  One person is making your beer with care and consideration to every ingredient.  It's trying very hard to make this beer seem personal, when it is in fact probably brewed in the same factory as Coors Light.  It goes back to the third category of trying to associate something with a product that has no natural association to it.  Realistically, if we stop to consider it, this beer is not being brewed one batch at a time by one artisan who has dedicated his life and being to making this beer just for you.  But that is exactly the lie that advertising would love for you to believe!

And it is a lie!  It's no more honest than the belief that having Bud Light or Keystone at your party will make hot women like you, or that you're going to have fun adventure if you drink our product.  This commercial was made by the same suits with nearly the same intention, they want to propose a hypothetical experience that they want you to think you'll have if you drink this product.

Another thing is that this beer is more so being sold on the merit of taste.  While it does want to insist how personal it is, this commercial is trying it's damnedest to communicate a hyperbolized visual metaphor for what drinking their product is like.  It's fucking delicious, you ignorant middle class subhuman, and if we can get you to order this the next time your purchase a nine dollar cheeseburger than MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.  

Blue Moon is not aimed at the lowest common denominator.  It costs more to make and isn't the sort of beer that the average person would be drinking in mass amounts.  It's not a beer that's about partying and good times, it's a beer that's honestly almost seems a little fucking solemn.  Like, holy shit, I drink this shit at Applebees, calm the fuck down guys.  Advertising doesget to be exclusionary when you factor in luxury.  All of a sudden you can ignore the people who will NEVER be your customers because there's a very cleanly cut line you've set up with quality and price.  

This does not exist in Mike's Hard Lemonade.  Mike's Hard Lemonade is the drink where class goes to die.

And also, thank you GT for doing my legwork.  The check's in the mail.

You clearly regard these things with disdain, but you're also actively arguing against improving them. I don't really get it. You want bad things to stay bad?

I'm okay with trivial garbage being trivial garbage.
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CowBoyDan
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« Reply #136 on: March 08, 2013, 06:00:58 PM »

also i find those ads repetitive. it's not exactly funny to hear the joke told over and over.

I find feminist repetitive, wah wah, not fair, wah wah not funny, must change system.  My boss is the head of software engineering, she is a brilliant manager that started as a programmer, her boss is the COO of the company (and also female).  The best software managers I have had in my career were female.  Most of the women I am around are very successful and don't make excuses for any lack of success.  Winners win, losers find excuses and blame others, this concept is not related to gender or race but often is made to seem that way.
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ThemsAllTook
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« Reply #137 on: March 08, 2013, 06:01:58 PM »

You clearly regard these things with disdain, but you're also actively arguing against improving them. I don't really get it. You want bad things to stay bad?

I'm okay with trivial garbage being trivial garbage.

That seems perfectly fair, but from what I've read of your posts, it looks like it goes quite a lot beyond that. It seems like you're not OK with attempts to turn trivial garbage into something better. That's the part I don't get... How is it worth your time to post in threads like this to argue against positive change? What's the motivation? I don't seek to antagonize, I just honestly want to understand where you're coming from.
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Alec S.
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« Reply #138 on: March 08, 2013, 06:02:16 PM »

Hey, I'm not saying most beer commercials aren't targeted at the lowest common denominator, or that they don't mostly throw T&A in the viewers face, I'm just providing a counter-example which shows that they don't have to be.  (And it technically desn't fall under category C, as it never shows the beer being served at all.  I will grant that it falls under the spirit of C).  But, yeah, I mostly posted that a a jokey response to your hypothetical question/sweeping generalization.
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C.A. Sinner
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« Reply #139 on: March 08, 2013, 06:04:42 PM »

the kitschiest corners of human expression tend to be the biggest though and also the ones that are most reflective of the values of mainstream society.

Are we talking about art or beer commercials here?  I don't know how to respond.
we're talking about popular culture
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evelynjolie
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« Reply #140 on: March 08, 2013, 06:09:39 PM »

also i find those ads repetitive. it's not exactly funny to hear the joke told over and over.

I find feminist repetitive, wah wah, not fair, wah wah not funny, must change system.  My boss is the head of software engineering, she is a brilliant manager that started as a programmer, her boss is the COO of the company (and also female).  The best software managers I have had in my career were female.  Most of the women I am around are very successful and don't make excuses for any lack of success.  Winners win, losers find excuses and blame others, this concept is not related to gender or race but often is made to seem that way.

i find you repetitive, unintelligible, and whiny. you're projecting your insecurities on to a video of critique to believe that she's forcing game developers to change things. snap out of it. you see what you're doing there? them feminists blaming me! it sounds like you're playing victim, loser.

also, cowboydan, maybe you should ask your female boss and software managers what they actually think about feminism instead of making assumptions out of thin air.
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AshfordPride
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« Reply #141 on: March 08, 2013, 06:24:38 PM »

And it technically desn't fall under category C, as it never shows the beer being served at all.  I will grant that it falls under the spirit of C).

You legally can't show alcoholic beverages being consumed in commercials.  Like, the literal act of the liquid sliding beyond the lips is where you have to stop.  So in situations where the beer is trying to sell itself on taste, it's very important to be heavy into the metaphorical.  Look at how they toast those two glass at the end, it's like the entire commercial was a lead up to invite you to be the third man to raise your cool, delicious glass of Blue Moon with them.

That seems perfectly fair, but from what I've read of your posts, it looks like it goes quite a lot beyond that. It seems like you're not OK with attempts to turn trivial garbage into something better. That's the part I don't get... How is it worth your time to post in threads like this to argue against positive change? What's the motivation? I don't seek to antagonize, I just honestly want to understand where you're coming from.

I'm not arguing against positive change.  I'm arguing against people who demand that the inconsequential and awful change.  You put yourself down there with the worst of them, seeking to only elevate yourself above them by standing on your tippy-toes just high enough to shout a word of disapproval.  Why are so many people, especially related to video games, only concerned with aspects of them that are designed to appeal to the worst of us?  How do you even notice them if you're not actually one of them?  Isn't the best thing to do to just appreciate the finer things and not to sully your hands with even giving the awful any sort of acknowledgement?  Because, really, I'm being assaulted constantly in the realm of video games with things I absolutely despise, and the only thing that keeps me in here is the ability to find things that are made for me and that I actually enjoy.

I don't seek to change things I know I can't.  I'm in my little niche, snug as a bug.  A despicable unshaven hermit of culture.  

What's your plan hotshot?  Maybe if a few people on a forum acknowledge beer commercials as dum we'll all join hands across America and usher in a new age of artistic achievement?

And like you, I don't seek to antagonize either.  I seek to...  Perhaps...  Samtagonize?

Oh god that was fucking terrible, why did you make me say that?

we're talking about popular culture

It's terrible.  Truly awful.

The only thing worse than it or the people who want it to be better.  
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AshfordPride
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« Reply #142 on: March 08, 2013, 06:25:59 PM »

Man, what am I even trying to say anymore?

It's all kind of interesting to me but I feel like everything I post anything here it's like I've tied you to the back of my train of thought by a fucking rope. 

CHOO CHOO
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ஒழுக்கின்மை
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« Reply #143 on: March 08, 2013, 06:26:45 PM »

i think any media originally created for adolescent males is going to be sexist -- videogames and comics both have similar issues. both started for adolescent males and then tried (with some success) to expand their audiences. the issue is in trying to expand beyond adolescent males, there's a force that wants games to remain functionally same (an old guard) and a force that wants games to change (a new wave)

one group wants new games to play and be a lot like old games, just with updated graphics and slightly more complex systems. e.g. they want more superman and more batman, but with even better art and even more exciting stories. the other group wants something like maus and watchmen instead
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evelynjolie
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« Reply #144 on: March 08, 2013, 06:30:00 PM »

Man, what am I even trying to say anymore?

It's all kind of interesting to me but I feel like everything I post anything here it's like I've tied you to the back of my train of thought by a fucking rope. 

CHOO CHOO
i don't mind you posting those long walls of nothing. maybe you'll get it one day. or something.
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AshfordPride
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« Reply #145 on: March 08, 2013, 06:31:26 PM »

Actually Paul, Watchmen was originally conceived to be made using characters in the DC Universe.  Blue Beetle filled the role of Nite-Owl, The Question was Rorschach, and etc.  It was only changed because it would mean that these characters wouldn't be able to be used in future stories.  But the entire thing was planned out to be, well, same old shit with a new coat of paint.  
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ஒழுக்கின்மை
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« Reply #146 on: March 08, 2013, 06:33:38 PM »

Actually Paul, Watchmen was originally conceived to be made using characters in the DC Universe.  Blue Beetle filled the role of Nite-Owl, The Question was Rorschach, and etc.  It was only changed because it would mean that these characters wouldn't be able to be used in future stories.  But the entire thing was planned out to be, well, same old shit with a new coat of paint.  

i remember hearing something like that, but i also remember that the author wanted to take superhero tropes and turn it into something serious, just to prove it can be done, and that it's not the superhero setting in itself that prevents more serious themes, but rather just the quality of writing
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Blademasterbobo
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« Reply #147 on: March 08, 2013, 06:35:12 PM »

yeah and look at what happened to comics. meanwhile, manga, which has more than 1 genre, has flourished
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ThemsAllTook
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« Reply #148 on: March 08, 2013, 07:09:17 PM »

Isn't the best thing to do to just appreciate the finer things and not to sully your hands with even giving the awful any sort of acknowledgement?  Because, really, I'm being assaulted constantly in the realm of video games with things I absolutely despise, and the only thing that keeps me in here is the ability to find things that are made for me and that I actually enjoy.

Sure...well, yes and no. It certainly doesn't make sense to fixate on something awful and make your entire existence about that one thing. On the flip side, totally ignoring and shunning things you dislike doesn't seem advisable either. Ignorance might be pleasant on the surface, but dealing with ugly problems head-on is ultimately more satisfying and beneficial.

What's your plan hotshot?

Don't have one. Honestly, I'm fairly neutral on this topic - I think both sides of the argument sound ridiculous in their own ways. A lot of the people in YouTube videos that have been linked from this thread (yes, on both sides) sound like they're from a different planet than I am. Really, I'm just seeking to understand issues that have been foreign to me for most of my life; partially out of pure curiosity, partially so that I can avoid making sexist blunders that I didn't know I was making.

Your perspective is one that I was having trouble understanding. That's the only reason I singled you out, just to try to get some more insight into how you see things. Can't say I'm all the way there, but I'm getting a better grasp on it.

And like you, I don't seek to antagonize either.  I seek to...  Perhaps...  Samtagonize?

Oh god that was fucking terrible, why did you make me say that?

I'll admit that my choice of words wasn't accidental. Grin
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ஒழுக்கின்மை
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« Reply #149 on: March 08, 2013, 08:20:03 PM »

i don't think there really needs to be some complex plan to end sexism in games. it'll naturally change as the audience and developer base change

a key thing to understand here is that the content creators *always* lag behind the audience when it comes to a media. regarding the 'old guard' and 'new wave' things i mentioned, developers are usually old guard rather than new wave, at a higher percent than players are. this is because developers are older and grew up with games and are more heavily invested in them; so they, moreso than players, are resistant to change

we see this, for instance, in so-called art games. plenty of art games do very well in the marketplace; tale of tales has an audience, jason rohrer has an audience. more recently, there's amnesia, antichamber, dys4ia, analogue: a hate story, etc. their biggest critics are not normal players, but other developers, and game journalists. their players are fine with their games, it's the old guard of developers who are not, because they have in their mind that games *have* to work a certain way, a certain formula, and to intentionally stray from that formula is against the rules

sexism is just a small part of a larger cultural change in games, it's a part of the transition from adolescent male fantasies to a greater variety of games. it's notable that 43% of players of videogames are female, but only 11% of the people who work in the game industry are female -- like i said, developers tend to lag behind the audience when it comes to change
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