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October 30, 2014, 07:54:50 AM
TIGSource ForumsPlayerGamesfemfreq tropes vs women is out
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AshfordPride
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« Reply #140 on: March 08, 2013, 06:24:38 PM »

And it technically desn't fall under category C, as it never shows the beer being served at all.  I will grant that it falls under the spirit of C).

You legally can't show alcoholic beverages being consumed in commercials.  Like, the literal act of the liquid sliding beyond the lips is where you have to stop.  So in situations where the beer is trying to sell itself on taste, it's very important to be heavy into the metaphorical.  Look at how they toast those two glass at the end, it's like the entire commercial was a lead up to invite you to be the third man to raise your cool, delicious glass of Blue Moon with them.

That seems perfectly fair, but from what I've read of your posts, it looks like it goes quite a lot beyond that. It seems like you're not OK with attempts to turn trivial garbage into something better. That's the part I don't get... How is it worth your time to post in threads like this to argue against positive change? What's the motivation? I don't seek to antagonize, I just honestly want to understand where you're coming from.

I'm not arguing against positive change.  I'm arguing against people who demand that the inconsequential and awful change.  You put yourself down there with the worst of them, seeking to only elevate yourself above them by standing on your tippy-toes just high enough to shout a word of disapproval.  Why are so many people, especially related to video games, only concerned with aspects of them that are designed to appeal to the worst of us?  How do you even notice them if you're not actually one of them?  Isn't the best thing to do to just appreciate the finer things and not to sully your hands with even giving the awful any sort of acknowledgement?  Because, really, I'm being assaulted constantly in the realm of video games with things I absolutely despise, and the only thing that keeps me in here is the ability to find things that are made for me and that I actually enjoy.

I don't seek to change things I know I can't.  I'm in my little niche, snug as a bug.  A despicable unshaven hermit of culture.  

What's your plan hotshot?  Maybe if a few people on a forum acknowledge beer commercials as dum we'll all join hands across America and usher in a new age of artistic achievement?

And like you, I don't seek to antagonize either.  I seek to...  Perhaps...  Samtagonize?

Oh god that was fucking terrible, why did you make me say that?

we're talking about popular culture

It's terrible.  Truly awful.

The only thing worse than it or the people who want it to be better.  
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AshfordPride
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« Reply #141 on: March 08, 2013, 06:25:59 PM »

Man, what am I even trying to say anymore?

It's all kind of interesting to me but I feel like everything I post anything here it's like I've tied you to the back of my train of thought by a fucking rope. 

CHOO CHOO
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ஒழுக்கின்மை
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RinkuHero
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« Reply #142 on: March 08, 2013, 06:26:45 PM »

i think any media originally created for adolescent males is going to be sexist -- videogames and comics both have similar issues. both started for adolescent males and then tried (with some success) to expand their audiences. the issue is in trying to expand beyond adolescent males, there's a force that wants games to remain functionally same (an old guard) and a force that wants games to change (a new wave)

one group wants new games to play and be a lot like old games, just with updated graphics and slightly more complex systems. e.g. they want more superman and more batman, but with even better art and even more exciting stories. the other group wants something like maus and watchmen instead
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feminazi
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« Reply #143 on: March 08, 2013, 06:30:00 PM »

Man, what am I even trying to say anymore?

It's all kind of interesting to me but I feel like everything I post anything here it's like I've tied you to the back of my train of thought by a fucking rope. 

CHOO CHOO
i don't mind you posting those long walls of nothing. maybe you'll get it one day. or something.
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AshfordPride
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« Reply #144 on: March 08, 2013, 06:31:26 PM »

Actually Paul, Watchmen was originally conceived to be made using characters in the DC Universe.  Blue Beetle filled the role of Nite-Owl, The Question was Rorschach, and etc.  It was only changed because it would mean that these characters wouldn't be able to be used in future stories.  But the entire thing was planned out to be, well, same old shit with a new coat of paint.  
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ஒழுக்கின்மை
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RinkuHero
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« Reply #145 on: March 08, 2013, 06:33:38 PM »

Actually Paul, Watchmen was originally conceived to be made using characters in the DC Universe.  Blue Beetle filled the role of Nite-Owl, The Question was Rorschach, and etc.  It was only changed because it would mean that these characters wouldn't be able to be used in future stories.  But the entire thing was planned out to be, well, same old shit with a new coat of paint.  

i remember hearing something like that, but i also remember that the author wanted to take superhero tropes and turn it into something serious, just to prove it can be done, and that it's not the superhero setting in itself that prevents more serious themes, but rather just the quality of writing
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Blademasterbobo
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« Reply #146 on: March 08, 2013, 06:35:12 PM »

yeah and look at what happened to comics. meanwhile, manga, which has more than 1 genre, has flourished
Shocked Shocked Shocked
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ThemsAllTook
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« Reply #147 on: March 08, 2013, 07:09:17 PM »

Isn't the best thing to do to just appreciate the finer things and not to sully your hands with even giving the awful any sort of acknowledgement?  Because, really, I'm being assaulted constantly in the realm of video games with things I absolutely despise, and the only thing that keeps me in here is the ability to find things that are made for me and that I actually enjoy.

Sure...well, yes and no. It certainly doesn't make sense to fixate on something awful and make your entire existence about that one thing. On the flip side, totally ignoring and shunning things you dislike doesn't seem advisable either. Ignorance might be pleasant on the surface, but dealing with ugly problems head-on is ultimately more satisfying and beneficial.

What's your plan hotshot?

Don't have one. Honestly, I'm fairly neutral on this topic - I think both sides of the argument sound ridiculous in their own ways. A lot of the people in YouTube videos that have been linked from this thread (yes, on both sides) sound like they're from a different planet than I am. Really, I'm just seeking to understand issues that have been foreign to me for most of my life; partially out of pure curiosity, partially so that I can avoid making sexist blunders that I didn't know I was making.

Your perspective is one that I was having trouble understanding. That's the only reason I singled you out, just to try to get some more insight into how you see things. Can't say I'm all the way there, but I'm getting a better grasp on it.

And like you, I don't seek to antagonize either.  I seek to...  Perhaps...  Samtagonize?

Oh god that was fucking terrible, why did you make me say that?

I'll admit that my choice of words wasn't accidental. Grin
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ஒழுக்கின்மை
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« Reply #148 on: March 08, 2013, 08:20:03 PM »

i don't think there really needs to be some complex plan to end sexism in games. it'll naturally change as the audience and developer base change

a key thing to understand here is that the content creators *always* lag behind the audience when it comes to a media. regarding the 'old guard' and 'new wave' things i mentioned, developers are usually old guard rather than new wave, at a higher percent than players are. this is because developers are older and grew up with games and are more heavily invested in them; so they, moreso than players, are resistant to change

we see this, for instance, in so-called art games. plenty of art games do very well in the marketplace; tale of tales has an audience, jason rohrer has an audience. more recently, there's amnesia, antichamber, dys4ia, analogue: a hate story, etc. their biggest critics are not normal players, but other developers, and game journalists. their players are fine with their games, it's the old guard of developers who are not, because they have in their mind that games *have* to work a certain way, a certain formula, and to intentionally stray from that formula is against the rules

sexism is just a small part of a larger cultural change in games, it's a part of the transition from adolescent male fantasies to a greater variety of games. it's notable that 43% of players of videogames are female, but only 11% of the people who work in the game industry are female -- like i said, developers tend to lag behind the audience when it comes to change
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The Monster King
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« Reply #149 on: March 09, 2013, 02:18:25 AM »

whoa I forgot about the fact that people would discuss this video on this forum

ok first of all nerdos the way you speak about how she could've done something better with her time is the stupidest fucking dumb nerd argument in the whole wide world.

like what the fuck! she never claimed she was doing THE SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN WAY OF SOLVING GENDER EQUALITY ONCE AND FOR ALL

she made a kickstarter to make videos analyzing the dominant tropes of women in video games BECAUSE THAT WAS WHAT SHE WANTED TO DO holy shit you nerds really think you can tell people what is the most efficient?? that's so insulting! On an indie games forum no less where everyone makes platformers (and we love it!!) its somehow seen as a point that doing something that has been done before and not the BEST WAY OF SOLVING GENDER INEQUALITIES (which you guys know, which is why you have solved it right?) (or one of the best ways man i really have to take care not to insult your precious arguments else you will cry)

this is what she wanted to do, and while it's not really FUNNY or ADRENALINE PUMPING the facts are there, it's saying a thing that is true and it's only the first of a series. Not everything has to excite you nerds!!! I know you're used to everything trying to. Also people gave her 150k to do this, how much did people ever give you to do anything? SOME people had to find this important!! How much do you bet that (a lot of) those were women who like video games!! noobs
"Roger Ebert if you think my favorite movie is two thumbs down WHY DONT YOU MAKE A BETTER ONE" - you guys

alright what else do we have here, talking about how it actually hurts men more, ok as usual "IT IS MEN WE SHOULD REALLY TALK ABOUT" smooth move very appropriate when talking about feminism (hint its not)

"women dont have to do anything" well like eva answered, women don't GET to do anything. there's some weird nerd message hidden in those posts that say "I work very hard for women and I am still refused" like if somehow women owed them something. If you save a princess why the fuck would she have to love you (at least in half of those games it's the char's girlfriend) like is your idea of love that one-sided

"its whining" yes yes very helpful

"but the comments!!" uh there is(was?) actually a reupload of the youtube FOR FREE SPEECH and I can guarantee you it doesn't have any unsavory comments at all!!


"what about samus" this is stupid. Does she really have to predict every thing you nerds are gonna want to say? This is a thing that comes up a lot. it's like nerds have to be reassured that somehow not ALL of what they liked had flaws. "yes yes its ok... you're alright... samus was good. you enjoyed her too and it was ok... don't worry nerd you are right as always, and now that you know that I am allowed to talk"
this was about damsels in distress, and mentioning every game that DONT have that is like mentioning every good game on a "TOP TEN GAMES THAT SUCK" like she'd fill half of her video with "here are examples of not problems" on a video series with the theme "lets analyze problems"

(ps allen asking someone not to resort to name calling is funny)
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GaldorPunk
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« Reply #150 on: March 09, 2013, 02:59:38 AM »

whoa I forgot about the fact that people would discuss this video on this forum

ok first of all nerdos the way you speak about how she could've done something better with her time is the stupidest fucking dumb nerd argument in the whole wide world.

like what the fuck! she never claimed she was doing THE SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN WAY OF SOLVING GENDER EQUALITY ONCE AND FOR ALL

she made a kickstarter to make videos analyzing the dominant tropes of women in video games BECAUSE THAT WAS WHAT SHE WANTED TO DO holy shit you nerds really think you can tell people what is the most efficient?? that's so insulting! On an indie games forum no less where everyone makes platformers (and we love it!!) its somehow seen as a point that doing something that has been done before and not the BEST WAY OF SOLVING GENDER INEQUALITIES (which you guys know, which is why you have solved it right?) (or one of the best ways man i really have to take care not to insult your precious arguments else you will cry)

this is what she wanted to do, and while it's not really FUNNY or ADRENALINE PUMPING the facts are there, it's saying a thing that is true and it's only the first of a series. Not everything has to excite you nerds!!! I know you're used to everything trying to. Also people gave her 150k to do this, how much did people ever give you to do anything? SOME people had to find this important!! How much do you bet that (a lot of) those were women who like video games!! noobs
"Roger Ebert if you think my favorite movie is two thumbs down WHY DONT YOU MAKE A BETTER ONE" - you guys

alright what else do we have here, talking about how it actually hurts men more, ok as usual "IT IS MEN WE SHOULD REALLY TALK ABOUT" smooth move very appropriate when talking about feminism (hint its not)

"women dont have to do anything" well like eva answered, women don't GET to do anything. there's some weird nerd message hidden in those posts that say "I work very hard for women and I am still refused" like if somehow women owed them something. If you save a princess why the fuck would she have to love you (at least in half of those games it's the char's girlfriend) like is your idea of love that one-sided

"its whining" yes yes very helpful

"but the comments!!" uh there is(was?) actually a reupload of the youtube FOR FREE SPEECH and I can guarantee you it doesn't have any unsavory comments at all!!


"what about samus" this is stupid. Does she really have to predict every thing you nerds are gonna want to say? This is a thing that comes up a lot. it's like nerds have to be reassured that somehow not ALL of what they liked had flaws. "yes yes its ok... you're alright... samus was good. you enjoyed her too and it was ok... don't worry nerd you are right as always, and now that you know that I am allowed to talk"
this was about damsels in distress, and mentioning every game that DONT have that is like mentioning every good game on a "TOP TEN GAMES THAT SUCK" like she'd fill half of her video with "here are examples of not problems" on a video series with the theme "lets analyze problems"

(ps allen asking someone not to resort to name calling is funny)

Repeatedly using ďnerdĒ as a derogatory term on a forum populated by video game developers, yeah thatís sure to get your point across. -.-

Insulting people who are having a legitimate discussion about the video and its content doesnít help anyone, and there is nothing wrong with criticizing the video for its intellectually lazy arguments, contradictions, omissions, or unoriginality.
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Empyrean Frontier (indie RTS)
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« Reply #151 on: March 09, 2013, 03:02:26 AM »

Insulting people who are having a legitimate discussion about the video and its content doesnít help anyone, and there is nothing wrong with criticizing the video for its intellectually lazy arguments, contradictions, omissions, or unoriginality.

some lazy accusations there, you're going to have to actually back up those words. i'll give you an hour, then i'm closing the thread (til the next video)
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Core Xii
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« Reply #152 on: March 09, 2013, 03:15:51 AM »

A youtube comment section filled with nothing but bigotry and misogyny has no value. I'm glad those people aren't given a place to display their opinions to the world.

At the cost of depraving everyone else of the same possibility. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and all that.
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The Monster King
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FRKUC im ALWAYS ANGRY AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAnerd


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« Reply #153 on: March 09, 2013, 03:19:04 AM »

gotta sugarcoat everything for those whose very argument is that we are asking for sugarcoating, huh galdorpunk??

being a nerd is a choice, a choice to obsessed by a thing. dont confuse nerd and geek; obsession makes the nerd. being obsessed about video games so much you spazz out when people try to analyze what's wrong with them is pretty nerdy!! did you even click the link i linked!!

do you really think it's more insulting to call people nerds than to make it (still) so common for female characters to be basically objects to be saved despite there being a lot of female players
like are your feelings really hurt over my dumb insult and are they really that more important than what we are talking about?? I am the mirror of your soul nerd and I reflect a narcissism where you perceive yourself as mario ya wah hoo hoo yippie i-a save-a da princess she-a love-a me very much!!

yeah there's nothing wrong with saying "the video wasn't fun" but when it's all that you say and that "anything is better than this" or whatever daaamn yes there is something wrong!!
like literally the best attempt at actually talking about the trope was "it hurts men too - PERHAPS EVEN MORE!!"

truly men are the victim here, damn these women and wanting to be saved from dragons JUST LIKE IN REAL LIFE (video games are realstic) (the dragon represents that jock from highschool who went out with that girl you had a crush on its a deep metaphor)


At the cost of depraving everyone else of the same possibility. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and all that.

DID YOU CLICK MY MOTHERFUCKING LINK YOU CRYBABY PLEASE-THINK-OF-THE-REAL-VICTIM-CRYING-BALDEAGLE-FREEDOM DUMBO NOOB NERD

I highly doubt a bigoted comment would ever get its day in the sun if the comments were open.

You too >: (
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GaldorPunk
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« Reply #154 on: March 09, 2013, 03:26:00 AM »

Insulting people who are having a legitimate discussion about the video and its content doesnít help anyone, and there is nothing wrong with criticizing the video for its intellectually lazy arguments, contradictions, omissions, or unoriginality.

some lazy accusations there, you're going to have to actually back up those words. i'll give you an hour, then i'm closing the thread (til the next video)

Pretty much everything has already been said in this thread. I didnít find the video to be remotely interesting nor particularly controversial. It is however important to point out that the damsel in distress is just an easily written plot device especially for more simplistic games, and not inherently a result of some kind of oppressive sexism. Counter-examples of games with strong female characters are also very relevant to the discussion.


gotta sugarcoat everything for those whose very argument is that we are asking for sugarcoating, huh galdorpunk??

being a nerd is a choice, a choice to obsessed by a thing. dont confuse nerd and geek; obsession makes the nerd. being obsessed about video games so much you spazz out when people try to analyze what's wrong with them is pretty nerdy!! did you even click the link i linked!!

do you really think it's more insulting to call people nerds than to make it (still) so common for female characters to be basically objects to be saved despite there being a lot of female players
like are your feelings really hurt over my dumb insult and are they really that more important than what we are talking about?? I am the mirror of your soul nerd and I reflect a narcissism where you perceive yourself as mario ya wah hoo hoo yippie i-a save-a da princess she-a love-a me very much!!

yeah there's nothing wrong with saying "the video wasn't fun" but when it's all that you say and that "anything is better than this" or whatever daaamn yes there is something wrong!!
like literally the best attempt at actually talking about the trope was "it hurts men too - PERHAPS EVEN MORE!!"

truly men are the victim here, damn these women and wanting to be saved from dragons JUST LIKE IN REAL LIFE (video games are realstic) (the dragon represents that jock from highschool who went out with that girl you had a crush on its a deep metaphor)


At the cost of depraving everyone else of the same possibility. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and all that.

DID YOU CLICK MY MOTHERFUCKING LINK YOU CRYBABY PLEASE-THINK-OF-THE-REAL-VICTIM-CRYING-BALDEAGLE-FREEDOM DUMBO NOOB NERD

I highly doubt a bigoted comment would ever get its day in the sun if the comments were open.

You too >: (


The comments in that link are from trolls, just like you. Trolls will always post inflammatory comments like that anywhere they think they'll generate the most offense, there is nothing of value there to discuss.
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Empyrean Frontier (indie RTS)
The Monster King
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FRKUC im ALWAYS ANGRY AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAnerd


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« Reply #155 on: March 09, 2013, 03:31:52 AM »

maybe you should actually read all of what I say then if you think of me as nothing but a troll!! Maybe you'd also learn I wasn't posting the link for you!!

in what world do you live where calling people nerds is "comments like that anywhere they think they'll generate the most offense"
the point was that the comments would be nothing BUT trolls, anyway, thank you for understanding that with your smart brain I am just telling everyone else because you, the reader, are the smartest person on this forum after all ; ) dont tell the others! this message only displays for you.
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feminazi
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« Reply #156 on: March 09, 2013, 03:52:11 AM »

Insulting people who are having a legitimate discussion about the video and its content doesnít help anyone, and there is nothing wrong with criticizing the video for its intellectually lazy arguments, contradictions, omissions, or unoriginality.

some lazy accusations there, you're going to have to actually back up those words. i'll give you an hour, then i'm closing the thread (til the next video)

It is however important to point out that the damsel in distress is just an easily written plot device especially for more simplistic games, and not inherently a result of some kind of oppressive sexism.
it's not that important to point out considering no one said the trope was "a result of oppressive sexism." we all know why tropes are used, because artists are creatively bankrupt (the intention). that doesn't mean the trope isn't sexist (the end result). do you have anything else to add? few more minutes.

Counter-examples of games with strong female characters are also very relevant to the discussion.
sure it's related to the general topic, but why should she mention them in this video? browsing neogaf, one of the worst places on the internet, the comment "should also point out positive characters" is most commonly paired with "she's whining about games too much." is mentioning samus actually going to calm these people down, who from the start had their pitchforks ready? (see neogaf thread that popped up before the video was even posted.) so answer, why she should mention it, and don't be intellectually lazy.
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feminazi
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« Reply #157 on: March 09, 2013, 04:03:50 AM »

A youtube comment section filled with nothing but bigotry and misogyny has no value. I'm glad those people aren't given a place to display their opinions to the world.

At the cost of depraving everyone else of the same possibility. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and all that.

we're like social networked up. those opinions will be heard on twitter or here or some dum blog. the thing is, there's already a test case of what would happen if comments were left open in her previous video. in order for there to be discussion on youtube it would have to be heavily moderated, which she has done in the past before her popularity spike, but now it would be unmanageable. also funny: comments left in the unmoderated video screaming at her that their comment is going to be oppressed.
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GaldorPunk
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« Reply #158 on: March 09, 2013, 04:08:38 AM »

Personally, I donít have anything to add, like I said, I donít think the video was really controversial. At the risk of sounding completely neutral, the video makes some good points, and its critics also make good points. I only commented in this thread in the first place in response to a single comment because I donít like to see one side or the other called excessive names or be shut down in a discussion like this. If you want to close the thread thatís your choice, but I think for the most part the discussion here hasn't been unhealthy.
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Empyrean Frontier (indie RTS)
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« Reply #159 on: March 09, 2013, 04:20:31 AM »

well get used to the characters around here. monster king yells a lot. closing it until round 2, whenever that is.
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