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TIGSource ForumsCommunityDevLogsEven the Ocean (Behind the Art series started!) OUT NOW!
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Author Topic: Even the Ocean (Behind the Art series started!) OUT NOW!  (Read 318589 times)
melos
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« Reply #1180 on: July 25, 2014, 05:43:27 AM »

still writing

Oh I forgot to post something yesterday...and today. I will post it today.


finished those last idea things...though I'm sur eI could just keep making more. we'll see. now I have to attempt arrangement, which is taking these ideas and putting them into logical orders with the right number of checkpoints in between...I think that 30-40 rooms per gauntlet should work pretty well, but we'll see. (A room is a mostly-isolated set of challenges or design ideas for the player, a base example is a room with exit and entrance containing one spike to jump over.)

My plan atm is: Intro I - Intro II - Separate (more complex) - Combined (Medium rooms) - Combined (Large rooms)

Intro I and II are showing uses of the two entities mostly alone. We actually show them BEFORE the gauntlet, too, but that's slightly different. Separate/more complex are uses of the entities, alone, but perhaps with helper entities  (wind, water, spikes, etc) in slightly more complex scenarios.  Combined is combining the two in different rooms sizes.

I try not to use spikes so much as cheap instant death, but as "movement dissuade-rs" or "carelessness preventers". E.g., as a "movement dissuader" It's hard to non-awkwardly prevent a short horizontal stretch of floor from being traversed (I could place wind, but it's just awkward usually). However, there's a short design idea i want to demonstrate by requiring the player to take the short top path (this is slightly forced and non-layered level design, but sometimes it's necessary for showing basic ideas.)

 but with a few spikes, this makes the bottom path immediately a less desirable path than going through the top route, however, it's still a slightly faster route for the more experienced player.



Spikes are sometimes used in rooms that i want to prevent wall scaling. There's another option (tiles you can't climb up), but Im trying to save those for later. It's a trade off between spikes and making the level geometry slightly more awkward in order to be climbable with difficulty.

As for "carelessness preventers" , this is generally just where brute forcing a room would make it easier to miss the design idea. One example is:



Here,  you can see the spikes at the top. Without them, you could easily hop on the water shooter (the white thing below) to go to the button which moves the 'raisewall' (the blue horizontal 32x16 thing) , making it easier to leave the room through top-left.  With the spikes, then you have to learn a bit more about horizontal movement while on one of the things the water shooter shoots (in this case, this one shoots 2 things, one at a lower vertical velocity: you can time it right to get on the slower one to catch the wall on the right, or be more risky and run and try to miss the spikes at top. Of course, if you're clever or fast you can wall jump up the left side with more white to help.

And even if you hit the spike, because death isn't instant, you could hop down to the white pod at the bottom right to save yourself.

I generally plan to put the more easy-to-die rooms at the beginning of checkpointed sections, and I don't have many of the easy-to-die rooms.

Every now and then I throw in entity-less or non-idea rooms because those can be fun.

That's just a rough plan though. It's hard to say what the final will be.

To me, I don't think any of the rooms are particularly difficult, but presenting them in a more logical order makes arranging a heck of a lot more easy.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 05:54:28 AM by seagaia » Logged

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« Reply #1181 on: July 25, 2014, 10:10:15 PM »

do spikes hurt if you walk past them, or only when you collide with them ? weird wording
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melos
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« Reply #1182 on: July 26, 2014, 06:03:28 AM »

they dont hurt you if you walk into them if they point up, but you collide with them.. other wise whatever direction they point they hurt you and push you away in the direction they point.
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« Reply #1183 on: July 26, 2014, 10:13:07 AM »

spike damage boosting when

also im excited about everything going on with eto right now

how come you havent posted the new aliph here yet
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melos
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« Reply #1184 on: July 26, 2014, 10:24:44 AM »

kiri i am but one mere human, i cannot remember to manage my 3 social media channels



this is a picture of new aliph sprite and face!!

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« Reply #1185 on: July 26, 2014, 10:26:08 AM »

ya. most entities now do something to modify your movement a bit, other than the energy. well some do. i forget. but yeah, we are much more understanding of how to make good design with ETO levels, I believe, and how to pace this over a long narrative!! I hope.

spikes bounce you a bit when you get hurt and theres also a small interaction secret~~ but that's been there forever.


Also new screenshot all

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William Chyr
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« Reply #1186 on: July 26, 2014, 02:39:01 PM »

this is a picture of new aliph sprite and face!!



Aliph is the main character in Even? I could swear you guys once told me the main character's name is Even, hence the title for that part of the game.
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« Reply #1187 on: July 26, 2014, 02:41:35 PM »

Where did anyone say that

Also with the whole two game thing I'm pretty sure Aliph and Even count as main characters for each half of the production

Aliph for the Ocean and Even for Even
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« Reply #1188 on: July 26, 2014, 03:06:12 PM »

Aliph's the main character from The Ocean, Even is the main character from Even. I would say that The Ocean is definitely going to be more production time than Even though (if Even was the same time as The Ocean we would Be Dead by the end of this game being done.)
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« Reply #1189 on: July 27, 2014, 08:35:52 PM »

Screenshot Saturday went reaaaaaaally well which was nice since work this week was mind-intensive . We got like 47 new Twitter followers that I didn't buy with ad money
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« Reply #1190 on: July 28, 2014, 07:51:46 PM »

yay sean's wrist hurts now! and palm. i've decided to take preventative measures because usually pain goes away after 30 minutes if i stop. i bought a wrist brace from amazon  that i'll sleep with, which apparently helps a lot. then icing, then also maybe a trackball mouse that willy and jon  use now.

i guess that'a  development update. i didnt do much today but i did do some game design brainstorming i guess. . ...

we'll be working more on implementing NPC dialogue and perhaps level design this week. not too much programming thankfully...i also finally got a loaner steam box (gigabyte brix thing with steamos) so i finally have linux/mac/widows native devices to work on. let's hope i don't get robbed.

https://soundcloud.com/seagaia/even-the-ocean-ost-shore-in-2-002-wip

song wip
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« Reply #1191 on: July 30, 2014, 09:12:11 AM »

writing this one area... it's time intensive because it's basically like writing a whole small book in itself. Feeling listless because of the size of the project and all these annoying repetitive stress woes that have been cropping up. The main thing that bugs me is that most of the hobby/recreational stuff i want to do on the side to relax also uses similar muscles... and so I feel blah about doing anything.

Actually I'm kinda excited for Necrodancer which comes out today. That might scratch the game itch while using totally different muscles (I have a cheap dance pad).

Also I figured out how to play around with soundfonts in REAPER and I think it will be fun to play around with some music/audio side projects. I've been trying to learn the basics of Flixel... but might try other stuff. I'm most comfortable with Gamemaker for making games, but GM can't export for web without a lot of hullabaloo (and by that I mean money). And if I'm going to make fun little experiments, it would be silly to not have them for web. Might play with Construct 2 free? Just... all of the organizational stuff in normal programming is what gets to me. I can sort of deal with the main game logic itself, but dealing with making organizational decisions adds all this stress. There are a tonnnn of layers of tacit knowledge in programming that prevents accessibility.

I've been really craving accessible tools lately. It's like... there's always this fear in communities that people will find some "trick" way of doing things more easily and that will lead to the deterioration of the medium. But I don't think that's ever how things actually work. There will always be people interested in deep understanding and exploration of a medium so allowing others in with various levels of engagement will just enrich things. It's a thing that happens with art. Andi McClure's art tools play into this dynamic interestingly (see this, made w/ Michael Brough: http://www.ludumdare.com/compo/ludum-dare-27/?action=preview&uid=4987).

A lot of the time when you see programmers talking about how you really need to "understand" coding to make good programs, artists talking about how you need to "understand" art to make good art, musicians talking about how you need to "understand" music to make good music... they act like this is the only thing that a person is doing with their life, and so can't understand why they wouldn't engage with all of the moving parts at the deepest level. Also it's a way of justifying the time that one has put into understanding all of those things. But plenty of people can't afford to spend all their time learning art history and in the meantime it can be meaningful for them to paint a picture. And some people do multiple things and can't invest in the more peripheral things as much, but can still be enriched by them or do interesting things.

I understand the impulses though... it's hard not to take other people's lives (their divergence from our lives) personally... as a personal affront. Hard to remove the ego. But basically I want to do everything, and I want everyone to be able to do everything. ahhhhh
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kittakaj
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« Reply #1192 on: July 30, 2014, 06:22:03 PM »

Possible BIG DECISIONS forthcoming! I dunno.
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melos
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« Reply #1193 on: July 30, 2014, 06:23:23 PM »

the jury is in
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« Reply #1194 on: August 01, 2014, 06:39:28 AM »

important post here


i think i haave like carpal tunnel or something

so im jsut going to sitaroudn and read design theory and books and japanese textbooks i guuess


but yeah big announcement

cool reads
http://www.firstpersonscholar.com/videogames-and-empathy/
http://www.mattiebrice.com/play-and-be-real-about-it-what-games-could-learn-from-kink/

http://www.firstpersonscholar.com/a-working-theory-of-game-design/


the last oneesp. ive been playing around with a game development theorry in myhead that looks at similar frameworks in usage, but in how usages of parts of the framework evolve over time . err...anyways.


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« Reply #1195 on: August 01, 2014, 05:12:51 PM »

Why we're dropping "Even"

For those new, Even the Ocean from 2013-3 to 2014-7 was to be two games in one, "Even" and "The Ocean". Until 2013-9, the two games were intertwined. We made the decision to separate them but have them in the same game in September 2013.

A few days ago, we decided to scrap Even - so now Even the Ocean is just one game instead of two. This was the result of how the project evolved from its conception a little over a year ago, from both being an artistically better decision, as well as a much more practical decision in terms of time and physical/mental health.

Jon puts it more eloquently:



Jon's thoughts on why we're dropping "Even" but why it played an important role:


One of the big and justifiable criticisms of Anodyne was that the narrative was very difficult to parse, and it was unclear whether there was any structure at all. Some people thought it was just random and meaningless, which isn't the case, but I don't blame anyone for feeling that way.

With that in mind, thinking back to when we were starting the project, the whole idea behind "Even" and "the Ocean" was that we were expecting "The Ocean" to be vague, fantastical, and impressionistic like Anodyne. "Even" would be more specific and mundane, following the emotional/philosophical/relational ups and downs of the character Even, who existed in a "realistic", modern world. Playing through the game, the player would switch back and forth between Even and the Ocean, and Even would provide more direct human context to the abstraction of the Ocean, allowing deeper interpretation to those who wanted it. And since a lot of people DID like the vague, dreamlike nature of Anodyne, The Ocean would still have those elements.

Around the time of PAX Prime last year, we decided that the games were going to be separate but together. That is, the player could play either or both of the games independently of each other, rather than switching back and forth at specific times. This let us basically just file away Even in our minds for later, because the integration between the two stories was not as structural. But now as we've been working on The Ocean, we've just continued to build up the context and specificity of The Ocean's world on its own. This has essentially rendered Even superfluous, since aside from serving that contextualizing purpose we just weren't really sure what it was for or what themes and mechanics were really important to that part of the project on its own. Since the whole structural purpose of Even was gone, it no longer made sense to make it part of the same game.

So we're scrapping the Even section. Conveniently, this decision which we think is the best artistically, also happens to be fantastic practically! This drastically changes the scale of the project and is a big weight off our shoulders. We've been really working ourselves hard and having troubles with repetitive stress injuries, so coming to this decision is quite nice and invigorating.

It almost seems like we needed the "idea" of Even there at the beginning to give us confidence to start working on The Ocean without over-obsessing about the story and themes ("oh we'll contextualize this later in Even... this part will be just like Anodyne..."). But then once we had the backbone of the Ocean we just kind of filled it in more and then it stood up pretty well on its own. Perhaps it was sort of a psychological set of training wheels?




I agree that "Even" served to be motivation throughout the first half of development: that more wild and unstructured choices in The Ocean's world building would be okay in the long run.

What I think happened was, in a long, linear game (defining linear as the game content is static from playthrough to playthrough), there needs to be thematic backbone, explicit to the player or not, to make the game world coherent to the player. This is important for contextualizing events that happen in the gameplay and the narrative elements, in order to make the game's events more relateable to every day life.

The Ocean ended up being longer than we had thought, I believe, some time around or after PAX Prime. In November Jon thought of some themes to bring structure to the main areas of the game, which helped in creating the overarching narrative, and also helped with area-specific musical and visual aesthetics + NPC interactions.

I don't know if we realized it at the time, but yeah that was the process that sort of eradicated the need for Even: The Ocean continued to become more and more concrete (while maintaining an air of dreaminess) and viable as a standalone game. And yeah, so.

Maybe this was brought on by physical health problems with wrists? When your hand starts hurting you really start to wonder "gee how much longer will I have to work this hard??", but with this that didn't turn out to be the problem, the problem was the unconsciously acknowledged unviability (that is not a word...) of Even within the Even the Ocean project.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 05:46:28 PM by seagaia » Logged

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« Reply #1196 on: August 01, 2014, 05:41:56 PM »

Ooh, that's pretty big news. It's important for you guys to finish this game with your mental health in check and for the game to be coherent and focused, so I completely understand.
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« Reply #1197 on: August 01, 2014, 07:37:47 PM »

Scope cuts can be hard to do but sometimes they are necessary to actually get the game done in a reasonable timeframe.
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« Reply #1198 on: August 01, 2014, 08:01:46 PM »

I definitely thought the two-game concept was really cool, but totally support you guys making the cut. I really do believe a lot of games end up not being so great because devs fall in love with an idea, and become afraid of cutting it.

Must have been a tough decision given how big of a role Even played, but it sounds like you guys got what you needed from the idea.

So what's going to happen with the title now? Are you guys going to keep it 'Even the Ocean' or change it to just 'The Ocean'?
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« Reply #1199 on: August 01, 2014, 08:04:00 PM »

Cutting it out actually wasn't so bad, it was definitely more good than bad. A huge relief and the final game will definitely be better for it.

It's still called Even the Ocean, since the title still makes sense in the "verb the Ocean" and "even the ocean" qualifier sense.


a good lesson is just minimize, minimize, minimize, cut back. seems to wokr well for design overall but also i've noticed it helps a lot in music too. probably art in general, hm.
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