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[mushbuh]

I can't really put an ETA on the art since I'm not doing it - but generally things tend to get easier once you do a few areas. So I anticipate things going a lot faster than the pace for that first map + the city WIP.

haha yeah this is totally true once you figure out a basic style (which jon seems to have done very well 

[Innomin]

Yep, it definitely seems like you have it under control. You guys are the pros. =)

I was working on a project with an artist that was supposed to take four months. At the end of that time I had coded most of the core engine (full players, collision/levels, moving plats, menus, transitions, etc etc etc) and we had art for half of one level done. It was a beautiful level, completely hand drawn, but it had taken four months and a lot of work to make. Instead of voicing my concern then, I let it drag on for quite a few months (doing other projects in the meantime), until the artist burned out, stopped working (never finished that level...), and eventually quit.

Ambition can be great though, as long as you communicate concerns and make sure you aren't biting off too much work. Based on the huge amount of art that was in Anodyne I know that Jon is much faster and better than the artist I was working with, but when I hear the words "hand drawn" it makes me cringe a bit. Probably just my own experiences coloring my objectivity though...

I'm new to the thread here, so I'll have to read through some of the earlier pages and see what you guys are planning. Sociopolitical ideas are my kind of thing, though - I'm working on a game story where one of the bosses copyrights "ideas", so no one else can have them.

[joseph ¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

mis-budgeting that badly is the mark is a very inexperienced artist -- jon has shipped like a zillion games in a short time and must have a pretty good idea of their output. I think we should just sit back and see what jon delivers~

[kittakaj]

I wrote this before the most recent posts from Innomin and Catguy! Whoops, well I'll just post it anyway. Whew, bummer about that artist, Innomin! And thanks, Catguy

Innomin, you raise a lot of good points. I do think we have things under control though. I avoided doing anything like the new art style specifically because I thought it would be too time-consuming. But now that I have a better sense of the scope and purpose of the different areas, it's actually a lot simpler doing it this way. We don't really have good enough infrastructure to do the older ways really efficiently.

Note on Headings
I notice that devlogs can be difficult to skim/jump into because of a bunch of wall-of-text posts. So I like the idea of giving little bold headings to my paragraphs, even if they aren't super structured, just to make things a bit easier to scan. Nobody else needs to worry about doing that, though, except maybe Sean.  

Older Graphics Methods
Trying to come up with tiles and non-tile repeated elements and backgrounds that all will scale and mix well is really stressful in the initial stages. It required a lot of going back and forth between different files, creating tons of metadata, and doing lots of tedious placement *after* making all the assets. I would constantly make a number of tiles in a working document, only to find that they didn't look good in the formation and scale of area that I needed.

Newer Method
This way is a lot more What You See Is What You Get, which removes a lot of the extra steps. Switching mental gears between steps is where I find my productivity getting laggy, so this helps with that a lot. I also think the end result is significantly better this way, which provides a lot of motivation and fun. Even for these initial areas, the process is already faster.

Playtime
I'm actually pretty sure it'll be longer than 10-15. Plenty of people took 10-15 on Anodyne, although I guess some players were closer to 5. So maybe I'd guess 10-25. Although I'm sure we could play it in much less time. It's actually reaching the size where I'm like, hmmm.... would I even want to play a game that long? But I guess I would if it was good. Hopefully EtO will be good enough to warrant that kind of investment. At least we can say that that playtime is not at all padded out by repetitive combat or money collection. I used to be super excited about big long games as a child. Now I wish games would get to the point more.

Combat/Loot Padding
Been playing a bit of Outland (PC) and Swordigo (Android, got in a Humble Bundle at some point). Both have some pretty good stuff going for them, as well as stuff I don't like. But what I wanted to talk about is that both have a lot of money collection and repetitive combat to just provide the basic meat to the experience of the game. It's generally effective, but at this point in my life, It makes me think, "I could do this in any game, why am I playing this one specifically?". It just feels so familiar at this point, it really could be any game for most of the playtime, and then occasionally it has moments where more of the main ideas of the game shine through. (Well, Outland has more character than Swordigo. Swordigo is REALLY by-the-book Zelda/JRPG fantasy with village elders and stuff. But--what it does have going for it is surprisingly natural feeling controls, for touch, anyway. I wouldn't say it's better than keyboard/gamepad, but it feels a lot better to play than i expected.)

[melos]

OK ADDING HEADINGS



HEADINGS WILL BE ADDED SHORTLY TO PREVIOUS PSOT



swordigo + outland. apartment tips. being bored with some aspects of games, geting old


Weird, I actually played through Swordigo when it was in that humble bundle. That's one of my last memories of my simultaneously great and horrible college apartment (if you can, avoid living in a garden level apartment: heating problems, flooding problems..etc.)

Well I got to the last level, decided there was too much grinding and quit. Both do have nice things. Swordigo feels pretty good for mobile controls which is neat. Outland feels really nice with moving in the larger spaces (even with the keyboard.), making precise movements - energy change! slide! attack! wall jump! etc. I have huge issues with both, but those concerns lay outside of a traditionally formalist view of the games, of course, some of it relating to that loot-grinding aspect. As I get older I find it harder to enjoy something because the main core of it is biologically pleasurable to me: the more and more I walk around and notice other people doing things around the city, the more these games feel less...useful to me? Part of it is definitely familiarity, but to some extent I'd like what I consume to be more immediately useful for what I'm choosing to create. And what I want to create is something that speaks to more than loot grinding cycles, I guess, something that is more relevant to existence in a city or whatever

[kittakaj]

Eh, no need to retroactively add stuff. I just think it'll make it easier for people who are just browsing to get a handle of what's going on in our devlog.

I have huge issues with both [Outland and Swordigo], but those concerns lay outside of a traditionally formalist view of the games, of course, some of it relating to that loot-grinding aspect.

I actually have a bunch of purely formal "gamey" issues with Outland. (Also bigger cultural/philosophical issues, but...) I really don't like the basic theory behind the level design. It reminds me of playing FFX, which I am sad to also dislike.

A School of Level Design That I Don't Like
It's the same thing over and over: a linear path to progress the game, blocked by repetitive enemy encounters, and made to seem less linear by several optional off-shoots, which don't contain anything really interesting but which you feel compelled to go down anyway, because you're a silly human animal. Now, many games could be described in this way, but some games mask it well or only use this structure lightly in order to frame more interesting ideas. Outland DOES have more interesting ideas, but does a very very poor job of masking this basic flow.

Minimaps Often Make the Difference
Maps reveal the structure of the level design, so a reliance on minimaps strongly accentuates poor design. You end up just constantly pulling up the map, then making the (not very interesting) decision: "Do I feel like going the 'wrong' way to get the extra loot, or just going the 'right' way to get on with the game?" Travelling through passages, having the same enemy encounters over and over, making this same path decision over and over... is not interesting to me.

But you can't just get rid of the maps, because that would be annoying. You would then just be choosing between random paths and likely getting very lost even though the space isn't thaat complicated. And this is partly because of the Silhouette Graphical Style which unfortunately makes every path and area look more or less the same. Don't get me wrong: Outland looks good and has a lot of nice visual flourishes. I like to look at it. But the graphics just don't help at all in guiding you or giving you a sense of the shape and geography of a space. Everything is just floating black rectangles all the time. My thinking is that visually and structurally distinct level geography allows people to think in terms of feel and landmarking and reduces the reliance on maps, allowing exploration to feel more organic (The fact that Outland needs to guide you through the levels with a cluster of petals is just a reallllly bad sign, from a design perspective :/ )

In terms of the enemy encounters being repetitive, how can this be avoided? I think that some games have a philosophy of "Every Enemy is a Puzzle", where each enemy has their attack patterns and tells and you need to get in a bunch of hits when they are vulnerable and not get hit yourself, etc. Other games have a philosophy of "Every Enemy is a Component of a Puzzle", where the question is not "can you kill a goomba?" but rather "can you kill a goomba under the constraints of this particular level shape, and under the threat of these other obstacles and enemies?". Even though the first method (Outland) seems like it will lead to cool complex battles with "better AI", the result is that you play the same gameplay idea over and over instead of the endless different combinations that occur when enemies are merely cogs in a unique encounter. Outland's enemies are too complicated to fight many at once--it's best to just avoid or pick off one-by-one if there are a bunch. And the terrain rarely has a significant effect on the encounters. If you want every enemy to be a puzzle, I think you need to make fewer encounters with less repetition (keep going in this direction and you get Shadow of the Colossus! )

Anyway, that's just a few thoughts, sorry this became Outland critique hour. I should maybe put this on my tumblr instead but it doesn't feel like a full review... just some specific thoughts. Like I said, I definitely like some things about it, and am interested in playing through the rest. I like the boss battles so far!

[melos]

Jon covered a lot of my complaints (well, after 40 minutes with it). I know the level design is going to wear on me more and more..it was already grating to see the minimap and have those offshoots with trinkets behind them.

Trinkets...good and bad.

You often run into the problems jon mentions. Also, when you introduce these things so early in the game it makes me take the game much less seriously (Oh great, time-to-first-floating-trinket = 1 minute).  ESPECIALLY when it comes right after a story that's trying to be "epic".

Moreover they unlock things that aren't necessarily even interesting to most players: I don't care about concept art unless I even care about the game! Trinkets are so difficult to use well. It's tough.

A nice thing though is, they can add layered difficulty or narrative...but you have to use them carefully.



Poor use of narrative/music pacing

A 2-minute-long 'ancient story' in the beginning. Being randomly thrown into some level, then in that central area being warped to 3000 years into the past?

I felt like the music had to overcompensate, because the narrative was so confusing and I don't know what's happening. It's like "ok. where am I and what exactly am I supposed to make of this..where do I even start..." - OH, cliched and overwrought orchestral movie action music. I'm supposed to feel excited or whatever. That music..maybe it can work if the moment's been leading up to some sort of climax, and you really want to convey the feeling of the protagonist. But how am I supposed to really figure out how the protagonist feels if it's this silent...black...silhouette thing? When the music does that it's like "feel emotions...here!!"

[kittakaj]

It's a bit obnoxious to say "You got a cool piece of outland concept art!" as if you might think it's not "cool" and they have to assure you that it is. Draws attention to the 4th wall break.


For balance, I'll say nice things about Outland. Because I like it well enough. Definitely want to finish it, which doesn't always happen these days for me.

Movement feels weighty and unique. It's a bit odd and takes some getting used to, but it's distinctive, which is good.

There are some really cool bullet patterns--the spider boss fight is kind of beautiful.

There's low... friction? to playing the game. Sure you can get a bit bogged down in repetitive collection and fights, but mostly the game moves very smoothly and allows you to make good progress in a reasonable amount of time. You can jump by a lot of stuff without much penalty. I don't particularly like the story or level design, but it's much better to be ho-hum but quick and to-the-point than to be ho-hum and drag on for a long time being boring.

Also the core ideas... turning on and off platforms and absorbing bullets, are pretty fun.

Comparison to Even the Ocean
It feels similar to some early drafts of EtO at times, but they definitely go in very different directions, because of the selective invulnerability and uni-drectional health in Outland. EtO has a shield, which blocks damage but the shield blocks both types of damage and only faces one direction. So EtO can't really have anything like the overlapping bullet patterns that are the bread and butter of Outland's design. It would just be a mess and sort of cancel itself out if you were barraged by both energy types at once in EtO.

I think the pitfalls of Outland's style is that the more designed/unique encounters with the alignment mechanic almost always rely on waiting for repeating patterns--color-switching bullet patterns or moving platforms. This can make things a bit irritating especially to repeat if you fall or die.

The pitfall of EtO's style is that i think it can be easy for things to get mushy and confusing. The design has to be really clear, or else it just feels like your health is going back and forth all over the place? And you also want to avoid making it JUst about white section-purple section-white section-purple section because then it's basically just a health system. Also want to avoid any points where the player is just "grinding for health" by sitting on a pod... that's boring, but not totally unavoidable. I'm not being eloquent anymore, but I did want to say that there are pitfalls to both takes on the "dual energy" mechanic.

[Innomin]

Yeah, don't worry, I don't blame the artist I worked with entirely for our problems. We had fairly regular meetings, and while I did mention missed deadlines occasionally I never voiced specific concerns I had or communicated properly. It's as much my fault that things fell apart, and I don't really have any ill will towards them.

I read everything
So anyway, I went back and read the whole devlog. Partially to answer the question "What is devlog?", but also because I wanted to see how things are going. And now I feel really dumb for what I said, because you guys dropped the Even section about six pages ago, and it was listed on the first post. You're clearly taking steps to make this manageable, and everything I wrote was pointless... XD

But I guess I can share some things after reading all that. Since you guys are playing Outland right now and I 100%'d that game the week it came out, maybe I can offer a different perspective? I'll do those section headers since I have a feeling this post is going to be long.

Outland, enemy design
It was an interesting idea, basically Ikaruga meets platformer. The platforming was good enough, and you'll be glad to know the path light leaves after the tutorial section. Towards the end it gets pretty difficult and that was a good thing most of the time, like when it introduced new, harder ways to move through obstacles you had seen before. But those darn platforming bosses and enemies were so boring, it basically made the whole game unmemorable. I had to watch a youtube video of the boss fights to remember them.

Regarding puzzle enemies (SotC) and obstacle enemies (goombas), I think you're right that they are two extremes of design. Outland took a very middle-of-the-road approach, and used bland design for all of them. Three hits is a red flag, for bosses it makes them feel easy, but for enemies (like in Outland) it feels like a wall against progress. The controls were fluid UNTIL you hit an enemy, and then you were groaning about the repetitive and boring combat.

Castlevanias solved this problem a while ago with leveling up. Some enemies were puzzles when you first met them, and took 2-10 hits to kill. As you leveled up and backtracked, you could one-shot most things, making the enemies more obstacles. I'd argue this is why backtracking works in those games, because it's more about speedrunning at that point than solving enemy puzzles. Three hit enemies are just a mark of bad design.

The fluidity of movement was okay too, but nowhere near as precise as games like Dust Force or Super Meat Boy. And the plot was a little all over the place, so it didn't really add anything. As in, no central theme, no urgency, no climax really. After playing it through, I'd rate it as 'meh'.

Anodyne, story contruction
I read the Anodyne postmortem and had some thoughts about the whole 'pretentious' thing. Sometimes it feels like reviewers use that word when they actually mean 'intelligent', like when a game covers concepts beyond "kill the bad guys". But I have a theory that the word pretentious ends up being thrown around when a game or plot feels less crafted, so it was interesting reading your hindsight on Anodyne.

I read something else recently about the five act model of storytelling, and how it is so much more useful than the three act model. The intro sets the pre-existing conflict, establishing the world and status quo (i.e. Montagues vs Capulets). The reversal or kick sets the plot in motion, often making the existing conflict worse or contrary to expectations (Romeo and Juliet fall in love). The turn is when the story changes dramatically after a single event (Romeo kills Tybalt and is on the run), and makes the story about something else. It keeps the middle interesting in a way that rivals the climax. The spiral is when the characters have to deal with the unexpected change, often in an overdramatic way compared to the original story as presented (Romeo and Juliet decide to fake deaths and run away together). The climax + resolution is where the overarching themes are resolved and the point of the story is realized (Both heirs die because of their families' feud. FAMILY FEUD!).

What really helped me was that this structure can be used with character development arcs as well (stereotype, interesting behavior, being seen in a new light, dealing with their growth and making a critical decision, and a decision that often coincides with the story climax), and stories can interleave multiple themes and characters in ways that improve the middle and climax of a story. I think when these arcs are known before the climax it helps add weight to the whole story, through things like foreshadowing, and that might add a level of crafting that makes it feel less abstract? I do think abstract games will always be called pretentious by some people though, so it's not too big of a deal in an abstract story...

Oh, the article also talked about mystery vs. urgency, and how those relate to good storytelling. It used J J Abrams as an example of stories with only mystery, and didn't really say you needed both in a good story, just that they were tools. The sense of mystery is often an unresolved conflict, and by adding urgency to a story you can distract people enough to keep them from getting bored on the big thematic arcs. From what I've read about Even the Ocean here, I would say you have urgency in the power stations, so you can use that to propel the story to some extent.

Anodyne experience
I played through Anodyne in a couple days, and personally I liked the abstract story and underlying themes. Cubeland was a little on the nose about internet communication, but in general things felt inspired in a way that games rarely are. It didn't really matter what the NPCs and environments were representing, they just felt like they had thought and weight behind them. And I totally got the idea of the broom as sweeping up cobwebs in the mind, but I think the beginning of the story had more of that theme than the mid-end did.

Personally I liked the card collecting, as it felt similar to the trinkets in VVVVVV. As in, it was simple to find them, but a puzzle to actually GET them. I definitely agree that using them to unlock an area after the climax specifically for completionists is a good idea (that's what VVVVVV did too), but some of my favorite and most memorable moments from Anodyne were solving card puzzles. That rat one in the corner of the apartment building was especially devious! =)

It does feel like collectables are a propulsive force for searching every part of areas, but the cards were in plain sight most of the time, and it was just a question of if you were good enough to get them, which was great design! I am definitely a completionist, though, so I guess I don't have a take on the other perspective. There was only one time I didn't have enough cards to unlock the gate, and it might have been the last gate...

Speedruns and demo
Seeing as you were talking about speedrunning modes, I was wondering if you could beat gauntlets while only absorbing one type of energy. An "unbalanced" run, so to speak. This might incentivize beating levels while maximizing time spent in one side of the bar, while also starting the challenge balanced in the center so most platforming challenges would be doable.

I haven't tried the demo so I can't really say if this would work. I was really disappointed when I clicked on the download link and it was taken down already, but I understand if it's outdated at this point. You have a lot of broken music links and writing links too, so I feel like I missed out on a lot of the dev process in my binge read... oh well, it was fun and informative anyway.


Okay that's my huge post after becoming more informed. I'll try not to hijack the thread again, and feel free to ignore it all. Good luck guys, it seems like you have a strong concept and a good grasp on development, so I'm excited to see what this turns into! =)

[kittakaj]

I read everything
So anyway, I went back and read the whole devlog. Partially to answer the question "What is devlog?", but also because I wanted to see how things are going. And now I feel really dumb for what I said, because you guys dropped the Even section about six pages ago, and it was listed on the first post. You're clearly taking steps to make this manageable, and everything I wrote was pointless... XD

No worries! I don't expect everyone to read the entire devlog before posting! We always appreciate thoughts/observations.

Outland, enemy design
It was an interesting idea, basically Ikaruga meets platformer. The platforming was good enough, and you'll be glad to know the path light leaves after the tutorial section. Towards the end it gets pretty difficult and that was a good thing most of the time, like when it introduced new, harder ways to move through obstacles you had seen before. But those darn platforming bosses and enemies were so boring, it basically made the whole game unmemorable. I had to watch a youtube video of the boss fights to remember them.

Yeah, I think the game has a lot of flaws, but still kinda fun. Like, I thought the bosses had generally fun, exhilarating visuals, even if the actual stuff you did to fight wasn't super great. I dunno, if I take off my designer hat I can have a good time with it. Oh also... weird--the guiding petals have been staying with me the entire game! Maybe that's a setting somewhere.

Castlevanias solved this problem a while ago with leveling up. Some enemies were puzzles when you first met them, and took 2-10 hits to kill. As you leveled up and backtracked, you could one-shot most things, making the enemies more obstacles. I'd argue this is why backtracking works in those games, because it's more about speedrunning at that point than solving enemy puzzles. Three hit enemies are just a mark of bad design.

Interesting... normally I don't like leveling in games (esp in games with real time action mechanics), but I can see how this makes sense for a non-linear game. Well, if it's really non-linear. Some Castlevanias/Metroidvanias are actually irritatingly linear, just getting each new item allows you to reach the next new item which allows you to reach the next new item, etc. Some of them feel just like a linear game with more backtracking. Others do it well and feel exploratory.

But I think I prefer the Metroid model of gaining power through discrete item upgrades, rather than an EXP system, which feels more grindy.

I read something else recently about the five act model of storytelling, and how it is so much more useful than the three act model.
...
The sense of mystery is often an unresolved conflict, and by adding urgency to a story you can distract people enough to keep them from getting bored on the big thematic arcs.

Hmm... I wonder how the plot and characters of EtO fits into that structure... too tired to think it all through right now, but I can kind of see the pieces. As far as characters... some of them function as initial stereotypes that are then complicated. Some... are kind of hard for me to pin down... and I think will be a lot more up to the interpretation of the player. Two of the main characters, Aliph and Yara, I don't feel like I strongly pressure the player to feel a really specific progression of feelings towards them. It will be interesting to see how people respond.

We've definitely been thinking about mystery vs. urgency. Those 2 aspects are sort of explored in the main story centered around Whiteforge city versus the smaller narratives at each of the power plants. The city stuff is all about orders and getting stuff done!! The individual areas have their own, complex issues and character relationships at stake... and an interested player can dig more deeply into those nuances or sometimes barrel through more directly to get the job done ASAP. We want to provide a range of different types of motivations so that a wider range of players can feel invested in the game as a whole.

It didn't really matter what the NPCs and environments were representing, they just felt like they had thought and weight behind them.

That's a nice way of putting it. A lot of the dialogue was formulated from conversations or ideas that I'd heard about that for various reasons had stuck with me. I felt like if these weird snippets stuck in my mind and affected my life in all kinds of subtle but persistent ways, then they were worth sharing. Definitely tried to avoid anything perfunctory... same with Even the Ocean.

Anyway, whew, I hope your journey through the devlog was fun and interesting!

[melos]

music, mystery vs urgency
The mystery vs urgency can reflect real life to an extent:  mystery existing in the areas and populations living in the city in the power plants, how that reflects all the strangers we pass by each day.urgency in the tasks we feel like we need to do. I let the narrative not be too connected to aliph via the music, often times the game plays semi-ambience or melodic music, but at times this peels back so you hear an approximation of what Aliph hears.  So in a way, there is a sense of narrative arc with the music. Silence can be powerful with this - that's a thing outland does bad on...sometimes the ambient music just disappears? for no reason...

enemies and disposability

As far as the disposability of enemies goes - totally disposable and useless (random monsters in games where you level up and they get too easy) to the extreme, every enemy has narrative and design weight - Shadow of the colossus - I think we sit in the middle or so. There's no enemies really, or leveling up, but every room is a puzzle-feeling-enemy-thing where you have to stop and think a bit on how you'd like to get through. Generally we try to have multiple ways to get through - even if they vary slightly - taking into account a slight tendency towards White energy or a tendency towards purple.  I don't think we have many times where it's all purple objects and you have to make it through without dying - maybe there are some rooms like that, but they can work okay depending on what point in a gauntlet's leg you encounter them (I prefer interesting rooms that are easier to die, to be placed at the beginning of a gauntlet, to prevent the bad feeling of repeating stuff).

[melos]

wip music ////

http://tindeck.com/listen/cely


just grinding through finishing songs.

[melos]

Thanks!

Did more music today. Jon did art. I 'll do more music through the weekend

[melos]

Made a post thing. Haven't done muchgame work this weekend, but a lot of reading/ some writing, etc.

Made this post about capitalist / violence in games and how it harms everyone sorta...open to discussion, as long as it's not 'fuck off' like in some comments...

http://seagaia.tumblr.com/post/99731307235/stop-violence-capitalist-tropes-in-games-and

[melos]

Removed that post for now. Did things over weekend with reading, worked on a lot of music today...so much more to go!

[melos]

wii u
whats up devlog. jon and i are going to hopefully get WII Us soon. i plan to deduct part of the cost from my taxes.


music updates
i made a song today, well, i finished the song. idk.

I've finished 40% of the songs, have started 25% of them (to various degrees of finished-ness) and have 35% yet to be started.

[kittakaj]

Console Consolation
sean it looks like you're talking about WWII. WII is actually kind of a funny idea. War 2. The Second War. Yeah I have mixed feelings about consoles... I'm scared of getting drawn into cycles of consumerism... I've never actually bought a console (besides GBA and 3DS). And I worry that I won't end up using it enough to feel justified? But at the same time, I feel weird never being able to try any new "AAA" games ever. Could be fun to have a sort of entertainment center besides my computer. Maybe a nice thing to do when friends come over? A lot of the time I just end up eating out with friends and that adds up. We just bought scattergories, which is a fun game!

Current Work
Been working on nature areas design/graphics. For nature areas the design and graphics are a lot more mixed together than in the gauntlets which are all about the design first and foremost. But with the nature areas, it's definitely more about the idea of creating a feel of "hiking" through a bunch of distinct areas. I'm doing my best to translate different movement experiences into 2d. I don't want it to feel like a bunch of different graphics but everything is just floating rectangles with a consistent design style.

I've been getting Basic Structure and starting the graphical style for an area each week. I think that's a decent pace. I might just keep doing that, going to a new area each week to create the structure and basic graphics. Then coming back through again and filling out the graphics in another set of weeks. And... yeah there are a lot of areas, so this will take months, unfortunately. I'm kind of sad about how long this is going to take. But every time I play a game and see the long list of credits, I'm like... we're doing good work at a good pace. I shouldn't feel bad about it.

[Jondog]

Yeah I'm always surprised at many credits there are even for some indie titles.

Good to see things are still progressing.

[melos]

Yeah, like there are games where people always credit it to two people but they had like a business/legal team of like 4, 6 animators, and a person for the music.....


War II is our next game. Just kidding, it's On The Genealogy or Morality. Just kidding.

You know I was exctied about buying a War Two yesterday. But then I watched a lot of videos and like...well I think I could get worth out of it. I'd like to try WOnderful 101, Game and Wario, and possibly Bayonetta 2? Idk. I feel like I would sort of enjoy the Mario/Luigi U games and SM3DW, but I'd probably have the same pattern, I mildly enjoyt hem for a while then they just get really tedious and painful to play and I haven't learned much. idk...Toad Tracker interests me I suppose.

Well I guess I still am excite about buying a War Two. hm.

--

And thinking about pace...in some sense, if you think about it we technically have a two year gap between game releases...but at the same time it's not really unproductive at all. I'm basically getting better at music since i'm finishing lots of songs, jon better at art and writing, i'm becoming a better coder, ew're both becoming mroe critical game designers. I've learned it's definitely not healthy to measure yourself through large milestones. plus there's the stuff done on the side, too...little games, writing posts/essays, reading, etc, are all productive things, I feel. So this has made me not feel as bad about the game taking a while, since it's not consuming my life anyways!

[kittakaj]

Yeah... I'm interested in Bayonetta 2 (comes with Bayo 1, which is cool), Hyrule Warriors (?), Smash Bros, Monster Hunters 3 Ultimate(?), Wind Waker HD(?), Donkey Kong Tropical Freeze(played this at target and it seemed like a fun romp). Then some rando AAA non-exclusives that I've missed like Mass Effect 3 and some indie downloadable stuff. And some virtual console old Nintendo games.

There are a bunch of Wii games I'd like to try too, if I get around to getting a wiimote. Like xenoblade chronicles? And other stuff I'm forgetting.

Haven't heard much about that Toad game or Game & Wario, but I'd probably get them if you did.