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TIGSource ForumsCommunityDevLogsEven the Ocean (Behind the Art series started!) OUT NOW!
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melos
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« Reply #1360 on: November 17, 2014, 11:18:55 PM »

A lot of it for me is time...I can't balance testing the game with tiny fixes against all this other stuff. But part of it is me not really caring. A bunch of stuff will be tweaked/fixed during the few weeks of beta testing, and then the game will probably be good enough for me.

Also I feel like I'm better able to reflect upon something if it has all of the problems that I left it with upon release. That could be a justification for my laziness. But I think back to how hilariously unfair some sections of Anodyne are and, well, that tells me a lot more than if some playtester caught it and I erased it right away. Or some similar idea with story stuff or music stuff or whatever...my memory stays with how it is upon release, I feel like I'm more likely to remember lessons if they're burnt into my head through the failures of something that can't be changed...maybe.

But in general my working style I think is - make something, release it - reflect on it - etc. Vs having a step for trying to perfect it in there. I have this lingering feeling this all stems from how I was good at science and math in grade school, and largely doing well in those is based on how fast and accurate you are with things...not really worrying about whether you're getting things perfect. For those reasons I did worse on like, reading and writing. Idk. Learning how to balance these sorts of things, when to try to be perfectionist and when not to be.

I'm still trying to figure out how Jon and I manage to work together well. It must be some sort of complimentary thinking style and personality?
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« Reply #1361 on: November 17, 2014, 11:27:17 PM »

Both of your games look great. Remember, though: if you push a little harder, you might be able to make your good games great. It's always sad when a game is "this" close to being awesome, but feels like it was taken out of the oven just a few months too early. Looking forward to your work. =)
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 11:37:50 PM by HopelessComposer » Logged
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« Reply #1362 on: November 18, 2014, 03:28:57 PM »

I don't think we'll release the game at a state where it feels under-worked on. I don't think we'll run into financial trouble or anything before it's pretty ready. I think the timing will work itself out... there will be a point where we feel good about it and know that obsessing any more will just make us miserable for diminishing returns. Gotta keep up morale!

Conventions
Yeah I thought going to GDC without exhibiting would be weird but it was actually pretty nice. It's nice to feel like I'm making a few friends in person... not just in vague internet space. Even if they're not super deep relationships. I don't hate tabling as much as Sean. I did most of the talking at our PAX booth. But... it was kind of a novelty then. There's only so much I want to do that, especially showing the same game multiple times. I probably like tabling more than the parties...

Indie Crowd
I don't really feel like there's an "in" crowd, is there? I mean there are a lot of different crowds that sometimes overlap and sometimes don't. I think there used to be an "in" crowd of developers who were actually making money on indie games, back when that was more unheard of. But now all those people feel like they're not part of the "in" crowd either. I think it usually feels like other people are more "happening"? I'm not really worried about that at all. I like being off in my corner, and I think most people are basically off in their corner too. I don't really feel like there's some cool club that I'm not a part of.

I think it's unlikely that after the release of Even the Ocean we'll stay at our current level of notoriety... I mean it's possible that it will just be a similar amount of success as Anodyne. But I kind of feel like if it gets as much steam as Anodyne got, it'll take off more, because I think it's better and more new and interesting. I'm not saying that I think it's assured success, but just that if it does succeed that it'll go farther than Anodyne. Just a hunch. Anyway, that will be weird to deal with if it happens. I like being as anonymous as we currently are... but still feeling like if I write something or tweet something that a few people will see it. We're in a pretty nice spot, but things change.

Flaws
I definitely don't want to over-romanticize mistakes... well, it's something that happens a lot in culture. Stories (movies, books, TV shows) are very often about people making dramatic mistakes and learning from them and that being the like beautiful and exciting point of life. That's not a terrible theme/structure, but sometimes it feels like it's an overused core and just functions as a way of making people feel better about their own mistakes in a kind of escapist way... like they don't have to worry or think before they do stuff because it'll just make life more beautiful to have all that dramatic mistake-making and growing. Not the worst thing ever, but maybe overly prevalent.

So we'll definitely try to make EtO "good" in the sense of not being shoddy or having glaringly uneven/annoying stuff that will make people not want to play the game at all.

On the other hand, some of the jankiest, roughest things in Anodyne are what really attracted certain people. I think just having it be the 2 of us working on it, and doing the best job that we can, it'll reach a good balance of polished-playability and rough-energy? That's what I'm hoping.
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« Reply #1363 on: November 18, 2014, 04:46:52 PM »

I should clarify a bit - when I say I prefer to not " having a step for trying to perfect it in there. ", I mean what Jon mentioned with when there are diminishing returns. There should be a step for trying to do your best where you're recognizing mistakes and fixing them...that's inherent in the making part of it for me. Constant trying to do your best/reflecting upon what you are doing will help . The mistakes I'm referring to are things like the flaws you see with structure/story/etc months after release (like the problems you see with an essay or email after submitting it), or the endless iteration of level design. It's worth iterating on levels to iron them out, but at a point there's diminishing returns...you're not sure what to do but feel it's pretty good. It's hard to figure out what that way to improve is, until you release it.

But it's always a hard decision. You could spend a lot of time to improve your ETO Level Design skill points, thus improving work ethic skill and game design skill...or would you gain skill in a better way by spending your time on some new project? Always hard to say.


That being said I could have revised the dungeons in Anodyne. Same with ETO. Well we are revising ETO level designs already, so that is good.

conventions
Yeah part of it is the novelty. I believe by Aug 2013 I had exhibited in some way like 4 times (chitoygamefair(sp?), e3, magfest...wait..maybe just 3) ? and a couple at small things.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 04:53:11 PM by Sean Hogan (seagaia) » Logged

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kittakaj
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« Reply #1364 on: November 20, 2014, 10:00:40 AM »

Got a new computer... getting the workflow stuff setup. I think we're good to go now. A big jumble of stuff left to do... hard to know what to tackle first. I think I might stream some art today.
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« Reply #1365 on: November 20, 2014, 06:21:04 PM »

Hi!

The thing told me to say hi. So I said hi.
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« Reply #1366 on: November 21, 2014, 08:28:24 PM »

Hi there!


#StateOfTheOcean


After 50 days...I finished the music. Hooray! (Except hte last one - that's the credits. The two purples are things I'm not sure if I need  but are basically pretty far along)

I expect it to grow by a couple of songs by the end of development for unseen story needs or ...secret stuff...



Anyways I also spent this week getting back to programming entities....revamped  this geyser-type thing and made our own spin on the movey platforms here -



nice to get back to coding. relatively easy to plan out compared to music (though much more frustrating. I spend 20% of the time figuring out the solution and 80% of the time fixing tiny collision bugs)
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« Reply #1367 on: November 24, 2014, 01:11:25 PM »

entity coding and stuff today! maybe i'll add in a challenges mode for fun...like in mario wii u (got it over the weekedn)
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« Reply #1368 on: November 24, 2014, 08:16:44 PM »

Seeing that chart progression over time is really cool. Wow, I never realized how motivating Dev logs can be.
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« Reply #1369 on: November 24, 2014, 10:45:08 PM »

I'm proud of you guys! KEEP PUSHING
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melos
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« Reply #1370 on: November 25, 2014, 11:39:14 AM »

thanks! I'm going to make another spreadsheet later today for event scripting and management...I need something to organize the graph for event flags / dialogue state setting. Things like managing "This set "Finished Gauntlet A" flag" and "This scene triggers when Finished Gauntlet A and Finished Gauntlet B are done"..


This initially seemed daunting, but it is less so: often you can coalesce multiple event flags in this way:


Say I have 5 cutscene playing in the same room (which I do, at different points).

for example, One comes after Level 1, one comes after level 2 and 3 are done

When you enter that map with the cutscene, it checks

is level 1 done BUT this cutscene A not played, play Cutscene A and say that cutscene A was played
ELSE IF level 2 and 3 are done and cutscene B not played, play cutscene B and say that cutscene B was played

etc, etc.


Every "scene" of dialogue (more or less, a conversation) has up to 2 state variables that are serialized into a text file - they keep track of htings like "did i talk to this person already" and can be combined to determine what should play when


anyways I initially though tthis stuff was a nightmare, but it's not really. it's just tedious and requires some level of organization.

-------


on a related note I LIVE IN MIDGAR!!! okay not really but I realized outside my window there is a train lol http://instagram.com/p/v1BsXOidGz/
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« Reply #1371 on: November 25, 2014, 07:33:20 PM »

Thanks for the encouragement!

Dialogue Scripting
Yeah we're gonna need some solid dialogue scripting organization, because there are a lot of places where characters will say different things and different scenes will happen based on progress and other variables. The underlying system needs to be pretty clear and solid or it'll be a huge slog.

Current Stuff
We're making some entities in preparation for more gauntlet re-doing and the surrounding nature areas are what I'm focusing on now. Really loving my new tablet monitor (draw on the screen) which really helps me keep focused on the bigger picture and allows me to use more of the muscle memory and style that I've built up over the years. Making the graphics is a much more physical experience now, and that's very gratifying. Anyway, this is the one I have: http://www.amazon.com/Yiynova-MVP22U-V3-Monitor-IPS/dp/B00OGNYTC2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1416972398&sr=8-1&keywords=yiynova+mvp22u

Tablet Monitors
Costs less than half a Wacom Cintiq, and as far as I can tell is actually better in pretty much every regard. The Cintiq is a lot more heavy and bulky. It has more hotkey buttons and doodads on it, but since the Yiynova has so much less bulk on the sides, it's easier to use with a keyboard. And if you're used to using Photoshop with keyboard shortcuts, that'll be so much more useful than a bunch of hotkeys ever will. Also hear that the drivers in the Yiynova lead to less draw lag behind the pen. There's some parallax (an issue with all current brands) where the glass thickness sits between the pen tip and the image, which makes it harder to tell where you'll draw if you're looking at the pen from an angle instead of head on. Not too bad, but maybe one day there will be a good hardware fix for that (it would be magical).

Anyway these are big investments for sure, wouldn't really recommend them to starting artists--up until now I've been using a $45 Monoprice tablet that has served me EXTREMELY well. But if you do digital art all the time with a traditional tablet... there really is an incredible difference at least for me. I met Scott McCloud once and he raved about his tablet monitor too.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 07:38:49 PM by kittakaj » Logged

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« Reply #1372 on: November 26, 2014, 05:43:53 PM »

State of the Ocean
That stuff looks professional...but also necessary for such an intensive job.

Anyways I programmed something today (like the little spiky animal in metroid that climbs walls) and Jon thought of sticking that behavior onto other entities...so that's cool. We can use that logic elsewhere for moving fans, spikes, etc

Event / Cutscene Management



why do this
Even the Ocean has a lot of cutscenes and events that rely on other events having happened. Thus, managing what cutscenes I've finished, need work, or how to debug them, can be complex. So I made this spreadsheet to calm my nerves. Its overall effect is abstracting away the coding details, letting me have an overview glance at how game events change game state, as well as makes debugging easier, and have a brief understanding of each event, without having to click through files or memorize too much.

Ideally I would have an automated way to generate the spreadsheet from the cutscene script files, but I didn't plan (as in, I didn't even know what to plan for - this is the first time I've done something so complex) to think of a way to do this. So I'm hand-filling the spreadsheet, which is fine -I don't have that many scripts.

This is helpful with debugging,b ecause, say that in some random event, the game crashes or something goes wrong. Then I can use this spreadsheet to glance at what could have affected it. In general every event only relies on 1-3  other state variables to decide if it needs to run or not, so I can look at what other events set those state variables to help track what could have fucked the event up. Yay debugging!

what do the fields mean


So explaining the fields:

event_filename  - Straightforward, this is the name of the script file which my "Generic NPC" (bad name , okay whatever) or GNPC object loads. More on what GNPC is later, but basically it's what lets the cutscene or whatever else run.

description - What it does. The examples here are: an event that stops you from going anywhere except the City on the world map, an event that triggers the world map tutorial. Others could be: something that blocks you from leaving an area, a forced dialogue triggering.

UNSET flags needed The event flags or dialogue state (see below for explanation) that must be equal to 0 for something to run. So in this case, if the dialogue state variable intro/map/1 is set to 1, then this scene can't run.

SET flags needed Flags that need to be set for the event to run. If it's EF_23 (intro_console), this means that something somewhere else has to have set event flag #23 to 1 for this event to run.

FLAGS CHANGED Keeps track of the game state this changes. in the piture, intro/map/1 > 1 means that I set 'intro/map/1' to 1 ('played') from its original value, 0 ('not played').

location Where this event is located (map name)


definitions

Event flag: just little numbers to store info about the game (Did I finish level 1? What was level 1? etc) . Often represents a "did or did this not happen", but I can set them to any integer if I want store more complicated data (e.g., the first 3 main areas have AREA_IDs of 1, 2, 3. I set Event Flag 26, "First area started" to 1, 2, or 3 depending which area the player goes to first, so that I know this in future events.)

Dialogue state: Dialogue in this game uses a CATEGORY-SCENE hierarchy. A Scene is a collection of lines of dialogue, e.g.

"Bob: Hi"
"Alice: Hey"

That also contain relevant dialogue tags for branched dialogue, portrait, speaker name, dialogue box location...etc.

So an example might be "town/merchant/1", or state variable #1 from dialogue scene Town-Merchant. Each category-scene pair has two state variables, '1' and '2'. These can be set to any number. They are usually used to denote whether the scene has been read by the player or not.



---

Overall there isn't much difference between Event flags and dialogue state, it's just organization purpose. And sometimes I add empty dialogue scenes to use them as state variables....anyway.s...heheh

GNPC / generic npc

GNPCs are..complex, and poorly programmed. They're a giant mishmash of things. Most of the time, they are NPCs you can talk to. You can attach scripts to them to make them change the state of the game (set dialogue state / event flags), or do fancier things like move, affect other objects.

They also can be cutscenes or events. I could make a GNPC be an invisible rectangle that blocks your way if the right conditions or met, or I could make it an invisible trigger that spawns bullets, or it could spawn a bunch of other NPCs to make a complex cutscene with many moving people...etc, move the camera, move the player, hide the player, change to different maps, change songs, play sounds, etc.

In theory if I gave people the API I made for them, you could script anything you want in the game :O to affect anything!!! Oooh

The scripts are in Haxe, and someone cool wrote a library that parses these scripts IN REAL TIME!! and interprets them...magic. (It's called 'hscript')

Anyways, there's a bunch of details for how it all works and stuff, but it basically lets me do anything without having to make compiled, hard-coded entities for everything.


misc serialization notes
all the dialogue state and event state are saved into 2 files. if you die, then it reloads  the data from your last save. Thre's some trickiness with quicksaving and temporary checkpoints, but quicksaving essentially creates a temporary entire save file that is loaded from (with some meta data denoting it as temporary), checkpoints cache relevant state (dialogue state, entity states if relevant (ugh), event states.)
---



END

--------------------------------

Video game stuff
I also played some of professor layton and phoenix wright...it's...actually a fun narrative game. The narrative is a mystery and not really super interesting, but the way the gameplay goes through it is cool. Part visual novel, part SAT reading comprehension, part random logic Mensa puzzles, part hidden object. I also played through Super Luigi U. Gonna do the rest of levels/star coins. I actually got the bundled version
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« Reply #1373 on: December 01, 2014, 06:58:07 AM »

whoa i havent posted in 5 days...okay. so Over weekend/thanksgiving stuff I didn't do much game related, except plan out this one scripting thing i'll do today. i'll probably do that. level design too, which has been nagging me (I've been implementing a bunch of entities)
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« Reply #1374 on: December 02, 2014, 01:49:58 AM »

i picked up anodyne a while back and finally started playing it. it's great. i'm not super into zelda but i like it a lot.

i think basically everything you list as a problem with it in your postmortem is something i value about it, but you've clearly got a very different design sensibility from mine (which is ironic, because in the end i think we like to do similar things kinaesthetically and aesthetically; the philosophy of our approach is very different, though).

i take it you don't like earthbound? that has a lot of the same "quirks" you seemed to hate about anodyne that actually i think make it special.
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« Reply #1375 on: December 02, 2014, 10:13:04 AM »

i picked up anodyne a while back and finally started playing it. it's great. i'm not super into zelda but i like it a lot.

i think basically everything you list as a problem with it in your postmortem is something i value about it, but you've clearly got a very different design sensibility from mine (which is ironic, because in the end i think we like to do similar things kinaesthetically and aesthetically; the philosophy of our approach is very different, though).

i take it you don't like earthbound? that has a lot of the same "quirks" you seemed to hate about anodyne that actually i think make it special.

Thanks! Glad you are enjoying it.

hmm...I can't remember what I wrote in that article. Off the top of my head what I mainly dislike in Anodyne is the seemingly random and contextless NPC interactions, and vague plot. Also the level design is boring and easy (though movement (minus jumping usually) feels pretty good).

I like Earthbound. The NPC stuff in there...from what I can remember, is contextualized usually as this designated village/city  where people live - and Ness & co. happen to stumble upon it, so it's not completely random stuff - or, it's main character who does fit into an overarching story in some way. Earthbound NPCs exist within some coherent universe, and it's also semi-present-day which makes things relevant in the sense of the universe's objects being directly relatable to things in our lives.

It's hard to figure out what the universe is in Anodyne, so when you read something from an NPC, you just take it as is, it's hard to dig more into it since there's not much relation to the rest of the universe. I'm generalizing Earthbound a bit.

But if you remove context from Earthbound, yeah, both NPCs are sort of quirky in their own ways.

I remember (and likely still think) of Earthbound's fighting aspect is boring, but that stems from me finding those sorts of fighting as boring in general. The ticking-down HP is cool, though, as is the small number of party members.

--

I'm all for kinaesthetically (mechanics?) and aesthetically pleasing things - I just now prefer the aesthetic side to be justified by narrative and gameplay (vs. just having pretty mountains for no reason), and mechanics to be...thoughtful in way - both mechanics-wise, but also, if they are accompanied by aesthetic/narrative, for the mechanics to be present in a way that is culturally and politically sensitive. i.e. a sword fighting game is fine...unless it's like some samurai/ninja stuff. progresion mechanics tie a lot into mindsets of progression under capitalism. anyways not getting into that more here heh hheh he hehehhrerhehweauh


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« Reply #1376 on: December 03, 2014, 09:19:59 PM »

State of the Ocean

So uh today I fixed some coding things. Then I scripted some things. That was mostly it. And did some math for them too heheh. Tthings are good overall i would say. the state of the ocean is good. PINK
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« Reply #1377 on: December 06, 2014, 08:30:20 AM »

a new music! (that i finished a month ago or so i dont rmemeber) https://soundcloud.com/seagaia/even-the-ocean-ost-p-o
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« Reply #1378 on: December 06, 2014, 11:40:00 AM »

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« Reply #1379 on: December 08, 2014, 08:05:55 PM »

hmm..programmed lots of things today. s
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