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1075908 Posts in 44152 Topics- by 36120 Members - Latest Member: Royalhandstudios

December 29, 2014, 02:15:56 PM
TIGSource ForumsFeedbackDevLogsEven the Ocean (NEW GAMEPLAY VIDEO!!!)
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Author Topic: Even the Ocean (NEW GAMEPLAY VIDEO!!!)  (Read 125148 times)
Sean Hogan (seagaia)
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« Reply #880 on: February 08, 2014, 10:58:41 AM »

feel free to RT and fav these tweets

https://twitter.com/EventheOcean/status/432219656359657472
https://twitter.com/Seagaia2/status/432224871301386240

or help us out with SSS upvotes

http://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/1xc0qh/screenshot_saturday_157_untitled/cfabum4
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kittakaj
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« Reply #881 on: February 08, 2014, 03:18:53 PM »

also we broke 50k views on the devlog yay LURKERS REVEAL YOURSELVES i have new art later

I have a confession, I have viewed this devlog 49 thousand times
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Sean Hogan (seagaia)
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« Reply #882 on: February 08, 2014, 11:13:42 PM »

#damn
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Willy Chyr
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« Reply #883 on: February 09, 2014, 04:59:59 AM »

I have a confession, I have viewed this devlog 49 thousand times

I contributed to the other 1K views.

Also, the sunset looks amazing!
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MallowyGoodness
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« Reply #884 on: February 09, 2014, 10:14:45 AM »

But at the same time, it's a game not a novel so you want to just not say too much.

Not sure if it's all that different. I saw Christine Love (of visual novel fame) on Twitter one day talking about how, as a writer, her goal is to get things said in as little words as possible while still retaining the feeling it was meant to have (or something like that I'm not good at quoting things out of thin air).

I think being too wordy is never good thing, no matter what the medium or context is, but when it comes to dialogue and flavor text and whatnot, not being wordy enough can sap some of the life out of things and just make your text seem uninspired or emotionless. Gotta find that happy medium.


And then there's system text (tutorials, menus, etc) which really should be as few words as possible regardless, which reminds me: Sean, what have you got planned in terms of teaching how to play this time around? I think I remember you being unsatisfied with the amount of words that had to be used in Anodyne's tutorial and I'm wondering what kind of stuff you might have thought up for making that less of a problem in ETO (you might have talked about this in the vids you posted, but I forget things easily oops).
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Gimym JIMBERT
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« Reply #885 on: February 09, 2014, 02:17:30 PM »

Text can be as long as possible as long it is interesting enough. Generally text is like huh? really?
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« Reply #886 on: February 09, 2014, 02:48:37 PM »

There's something to both the sentiment that all writing should be efficient (i.e., you don't want anything to be superfluous in a novel, either) like kiri is saying and also that text can be long if it's interesting like Gimym JIMBERT is saying. But I still think it's different in a game, particularly in an "action"-based game where you have a lot of direct control over your character.

When you're reading a novel--you are just reading, you don't have to shift between different modes of brain function in the same way that you do when you're reading "story" in a game, which makes you lose control of your character. Words having "interest" I think can be fickle and context-dependent, so something might be interesting if you read it in a book but could be boring if it comes at a certain point in the game where you want control or want to be doing something else. It's such a big and not entirely natural shift to go back and forth between reading and playing.

I think that's why RPGs and Adventure games (like the point/click kind) often tell more wordy, plot-based stories than action or platformer games. In RPGs and adventure games you're already not controlling your character as directly--there's an extra layer of abstraction where you are usually selecting commands from a list, so the transition between that and advancing dialogue boxes is less jarring.

And on a less abstract note, we'd like it to be speed run friendly.

But for sure, I will be doing my best to make the text both as interesting and not-pointlessly-long as it can be. Actually those basically go hand in hand.
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« Reply #887 on: February 09, 2014, 09:11:58 PM »

long time lurker, commenting to contribute nothing, hi.
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Sean Hogan (seagaia)
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« Reply #888 on: February 11, 2014, 09:40:23 AM »

hello neo!

yday i programmed some things
and worked on one of the final dungeons (on paper)
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Sean Hogan (seagaia)
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« Reply #889 on: February 11, 2014, 11:53:00 AM »

But at the same time, it's a game not a novel so you want to just not say too much.

And then there's system text (tutorials, menus, etc) which really should be as few words as possible regardless, which reminds me: Sean, what have you got planned in terms of teaching how to play this time around? I think I remember you being unsatisfied with the amount of words that had to be used in Anodyne's tutorial and I'm wondering what kind of stuff you might have thought up for making that less of a problem in ETO (you might have talked about this in the vids you posted, but I forget things easily oops).

The way we have things the core mechanics are pretty dead simple that we don't do much past say "here's wall jump, here's jump, here's locking shield" just to point out that they exist. Shield we've decided is taking a secondary role to everything, and is only a little bit necessary for normal play, but can help with more advanced play if so desired, and so we don't worry about 'teaching' it past just showing that "hey it blocks things."

 The intro level of the game is there to make the player aware of being able to lock shield etc (like forcing you to go up a vertical passage with lasers firing to make you lock etc).

So if you get through the intro level then you're probably fine for the entire game. Each of the new entities when they first pop up in their respective levels - most are safe enough that you don't really need to explain and simple experimentation shows you, for more nuanced stuff (like things that send energy) there are things like dead simple example usages of them tied into stages. (e.g. there are pads that transfer energy to devices)

So yeah, with Anodyne I think I was most unhappy with the dust teaching since it was kind of oddly there. I think I would have just removed it from Street and left it in the first spot in Bedroom. I honestly don't even think the intro stage was necessary, because there is only one dungeon choice in the beginning. Whereas I see it as more necessary with EtO because the game branches out right away after intro stuff.

I think there is a tendency in the community to circle-jerk over stuff like Egoraptor's thing on MMX (I know I did for a while, esp with anodyne - it is a good video that teaches to pay attention to subtle design stuff, but it's not the end-all bible of tutorial design etc). Like who really cares whether or not it was implied to show you how to wall jump vs. telling the player.

You use such a thing so damn much in the game that the player learning it on their own vs being told really doesn't matter - yes, it takes away an element of surprise but, like, MMX isn't a game that's based around that surprise (where as starseed pilgrim would have been totally ruined if it did such a thing where the point IS discovering new things.).

In that sense I'm probably going to have signposts talking briefly about light vs dark energy, in the two rooms in the intro where you are forced to use it (though the game is not designed around forcing you to use an alignment.)


tl;dr intro stage will have a few words, but the rest of the game not really. complicated stuff will have an easy example to illustrate usage, but we avoid a lot of complexity by having a simple core mechanics and never adding to that rule set except through interactions with external entities
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« Reply #890 on: February 11, 2014, 01:10:41 PM »

Funny story with Megaman X. So my brother and I got MMX4 a long long time ago. We were pretty young and I guess hadn't played any games with wall jump. And there's this part where you fall down a hole in the intro stage and it's basically the same as that part in MMX1 except the walls close in to crush you so it's more stressful. Anyway we didn't know that you could wall jump and once we figured out that you could, we didn't know how to do it well so we thought it was really hard. So yeah. Obviously that's supposed to be one of those great teaching moments, where you only get past if you figure out what to do but for us it was just like... we couldn't play the game for a while.

Basically I think that teaching mechanics in that kind of subtle way introduces a lot of accessibility issues for people who are young or haven't played a lot of games. Especially for things that don't really make physical sense like wall jumping
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Sean Hogan (seagaia)
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« Reply #891 on: February 11, 2014, 02:45:45 PM »

HAHAHA the walls close in to kill you? that is the worst it's like giving  young asbestos  from using the dust too much without leaving the room

that's a good point on accessibility. I think if the point of the game isn't discovering things (think Starseed Pilgrim again - one of the most inaccessible games on earth, but is quite beautiful if you can manage to play it) then I think it's best to err on the side of making sure the fundamentals are strongly established for all levels of play. There are many players I want to play who are not familiar with platformers at all: I hardly would like my main audience to be "hardcore gamers" . So maybe I will include more pop-up text - I might avoid signs. It's nice to keep stuff out of the context of the world when possible and leave it on this external-world display of sotrs
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Sean Hogan (seagaia)
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« Reply #892 on: February 12, 2014, 02:18:55 PM »

upgrading apis sucks
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MallowyGoodness
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« Reply #893 on: February 14, 2014, 03:09:08 AM »

Happy Anodyne's day #sickpun
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Sean Hogan (seagaia)
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« Reply #894 on: February 15, 2014, 12:28:52 PM »

indie cade demo is not done

f
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Whiteclaws
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« Reply #895 on: February 17, 2014, 02:43:27 PM »

f
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Sean Hogan (seagaia)
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« Reply #896 on: February 17, 2014, 02:48:41 PM »

Normal Work To Resume Soon

Demos was fun

Speedrun fun

##3
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MallowyGoodness
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« Reply #897 on: February 18, 2014, 06:32:33 PM »

Normal Work To Resume Soon

Demos was fun

Speedrun fun

##3

How come these anonymous strangers get to play the demos but not us huh sean

No love for your loyal fans
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Sean Hogan (seagaia)
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« Reply #898 on: February 19, 2014, 02:49:56 PM »

the demo was unaccepatble! except for that place.

dunno. soon.

soooon

I'm probably going to just make a bunch of rooms with entities and beta test it so i can test htem in isolation's.
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Sean Hogan (seagaia)
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« Reply #899 on: February 21, 2014, 09:25:27 AM »

programmed a few things yesterday
will program more things today

i did a goofy little live edit thing with twitch chat thing http://www.twitch.tv/seagaia2/c/3760963

that was yday-yday
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