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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperBusinessReliable Programmers? Where?
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Author Topic: Reliable Programmers? Where?  (Read 6439 times)
Schrompf
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« Reply #40 on: April 02, 2013, 02:20:35 AM »

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I've done a few websites in basic html, maybe I could pull it out by myself if I put my head together in Adobe Flash..., but I just don't have the time for everything.

Whenever I read something like this I want to point her/him to the Dunning-Kruger effect. It's really important for everyone, not just the OP. For every topic you're familiar with there's a hundred topics of which you read just a few catchwords in a newspaper. And you'll feel much better about your knowledge than you actually are. Be aware of this, don't come across as an idiot.
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Chris Koźmik
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« Reply #41 on: April 02, 2013, 03:23:45 AM »

If you get hired under specific conditions, then you should perform and be RELIABLE.
But what if the task is impossible? What are you going to do then? Try to do it for 10 years eating grass in the meantime?
The task you posted is impossible, no glitches and bugs at all is like asking for a surgeon with 20 years of experience that never killed a patient that could have been save if someone else was operating him, someone like that simply does not exist...
The problem is you don't understand the nature of programming. Comparing it with other professions (which in general are quite predictable in terms of outcome) is misleading. It simply is not working this way.

If you can't evaluate your own work and capabilities from day one that means you're just inexperienced, and should not be getting involved.
I have been a coder for 25 years, I still have trouble properly evaluating time and effort required for a certain game to be finished (even through I limit myself to a certain type of games only).
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ananasblau
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« Reply #42 on: April 02, 2013, 03:30:02 AM »

Regarding estimates and the Dunning-Kruger effect, last time I was in a scrum team we did play planning poker and that was quite fun and worked great. I never been in much of a team since but I'd do play it even it was just tree of us. Maybe I should list tasks in my devlog and everyone gives their estimate...
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Sebioff
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« Reply #43 on: April 02, 2013, 04:41:34 AM »

Reliability? It's not about money, it's about professional ethics. If you get hired under specific conditions, then you should perform and be RELIABLE. If you can't evaluate your own work and capabilities from day one that means you're just inexperienced, and should not be getting involved.

Other people have said this many times in this thread, but let me repeat it once more: NO experienced programmer would work for you under the conditions you are offering. By offering 500$ for all the work you request, you are attracting inexperienced developers who can't properly evaluate their own work and capabilities from day one, for example school kids who are doing some programming in their free time. It's really no surprise your projects fail once these developers finally realize that they underestimated the work.
If you want reliability and professionalism, hire a professional developer. If you want a professional developer, you'll most likely have to pay more. You might have luck and find a student or so who is realiable and willing to do all this work for 500$, but as you experienced the chances are low.
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nikki
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« Reply #44 on: April 02, 2013, 05:16:40 AM »

on the upside

Quote
I have 6 games graphically ready to go with illustrations, rules, text, icons, credits, etc.

you could also try your hand at something like gamemaker, then you can work with the most reliable person you know ... yourself.
when you have everything designed and ready, building a  game could be very easy.

and fun.


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wccrawford
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« Reply #45 on: April 02, 2013, 07:09:25 AM »

When I was young, my father needed a set of spreadsheets (on paper) put on the computer.  I found that there was a calculation for the value, depending on the scale on the top and left.  I offered to do it for him, and we agreed on a price.

It was way, way, way more work than I had anticipated.  About 1/4 way through, I wanted to quit so badly!  But I didn't.  I had promised him.  I had to honor the deal I'd made.

@PR, what should you take away from this story?  That you can only trick a good worker once.  After that, they'll be better at estimating the work and not work so cheaply.

These days, if I got in such a situation, I'd read the contract and find out what the penalty for failure is.  It sounds like your penalty was 'nothing', and so I'm not surprised that they bailed when they found out it was more work than they thought, or that they couldn't do it.

The people who are replying to your job postings fall in one of a few categories:

1)  Underestimators.   Will quit when they find it's too much work.

2)  Unskilled.  Thought they could do the job, but can't.  Will quit when they realize this.

3)  Trying to switch careers.  Might quit if they fall into the above, but will hold on if they really want experience on their resume.

4)  Scam artists.  Never intended to do the work in the first place.

Notice that 'experienced professionals' is nowhere on that list.  They know what they're worth, what the job's worth, and that you aren't paying enough.

I might have accepted your contract for the money (even though it's really low) because I'm a career-switcher.  What I would never have accepted is the 6-month-long period of free labor.  And I would never accept a contract for a set amount of money without having every detail in the contract.  *Any* changes to it would cost money.
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ananasblau
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« Reply #46 on: April 02, 2013, 07:18:50 AM »


These days, if I got in such a situation, I'd read the contract and find out what the penalty for failure is.  It sounds like your penalty was 'nothing', and so I'm not surprised that they bailed when they found out it was more work than they thought, or that they couldn't do it.

And they are doing it wrong. Many many clients will agree upon paying more if you can show them
a decent progress and why the project is not finished yet. Especially if the client has requested changes, every change gonna cost money I say.

Just look at build buildings how much than the initial estimate they can cost upon completion.

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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #47 on: April 02, 2013, 08:29:51 AM »

there was mention earlier about how creativity can't be inspired by money; i agree with that, but what i meant was that reliability is inspired by money, not creativity

besides, how creative is this, really? he says he has the mechanics of the game, the art, the design, everything all written out and ready to go. what he's looking for isn't someone creative, he wants a code monkey who will make a game exactly to his specifications. that isn't "creativity" so it would not be demotivated by money, even if those studies are correct
« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 09:35:07 AM by Paul Eres » Logged

petertos
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« Reply #48 on: April 02, 2013, 09:32:14 AM »

I agree, perhaps programming is the less creative part of gaming.
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Klaim
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« Reply #49 on: April 02, 2013, 11:06:55 AM »

I agree, perhaps programming is the less creative part of gaming.

That's not at all what he meant and I fully disagree with what you just said.
I think Paul meant, and if I'm correct I agree, that the particular "opportunity" in question posted by PR doesn't have any flexibility to let the programmer have some creative inputs at some points.
Basically it's a factory work: you get a plan and you're expected to do exactly that.

Unfortunately, that means it's less interesting to creative programmers. There are only two ways to motivate people in a project, which in the best cases are combined: intrinsic (the game is awesome, everybody learn a lot, things are going fast in the team,etc) and extrinsic (money, advantages, workplace). Here the intrinsic motivations are not provided, so to recruit anyone who would have both skill and time to do the job, it would require high extrinsic reward, either money or... etc.

Is this what you meant Paul?
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #50 on: April 02, 2013, 11:17:14 AM »

ya -- i do think programming can sometimes be creative, and normally when someone is called the game's programmer they are often actually the designer as well. this is especially true of indies; indie game "programmers" have a lot more creative power over a game than game industry programmers, who tend to just follow what the director, design document, designer etc. tell them to do. so i think a case can be made that programming is one of the least creative parts of making a game for the AAA game industry, but for indies that's not the case
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petertos
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« Reply #51 on: April 02, 2013, 11:28:59 AM »

--- I'm a programmer, I have programmed every tidy bit of the flash games I've released, just to point that out. It's silly that the newest and more difficult part of gaming (programming) is becoming a commodity and fancy graphics can make you sell more.
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PompiPompi
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« Reply #52 on: April 02, 2013, 11:36:02 AM »

Why do you care fancy graphics sell games? If you mention selling games then you are after the profits and no one gives if it's hard for you to make profitable games so you attack other profitable games by saying they are investing in "unimportant" things to get sales according to you.
What do you do to sell your games?
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petertos
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« Reply #53 on: April 02, 2013, 11:42:51 AM »

I've been a Flash developer for more than 10 years now, in gaming and other stuff (websites). My experience is that you can wrap a lousy game on a fancy cover and will gain more attention than a great game on a lousy cover. It's just the way it is. There is one exception (there always has to be an exception) on this trend and it is... Minecraft (BIG exception).

Programming is becoming a commodity. There are free engines to be used and I can mention a couple them (Stencyl, Game Maker, Blender). Some of them require just a few basics on programming. It is like websites, you don't need programming anymore. You will make more money with a nice PR strategy and fancy graphics than with a great programming tool.  No No NO

___ EDIT:
The good part is... somebody has to customize and make those engines!
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Klaim
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« Reply #54 on: April 02, 2013, 12:04:54 PM »

I've been a Flash developer for more than 10 years now, in gaming and other stuff (websites). My experience is that you can wrap a lousy game on a fancy cover and will gain more attention than a great game on a lousy cover. It's just the way it is. There is one exception (there always has to be an exception) on this trend and it is... Minecraft (BIG exception).

I believe it's true only on very short time periods after release, which is not how you make money with digital stuffs, which should be long term (AFAI understand at least).

But that's another discussion I guess.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #55 on: April 02, 2013, 12:25:55 PM »

game maker is not free -- you mentioned it in your free engine list. its price ranges depending on how many platforms you want to support, but the free/demo/lite version is free but has a watermark over your game and most of the functionality limited, so nobody would use that to make games
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petertos
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« Reply #56 on: April 02, 2013, 10:45:30 PM »

game maker is not free -- you mentioned it in your free engine list. its price ranges depending on how many platforms you want to support, but the free/demo/lite version is free but has a watermark over your game and most of the functionality limited, so nobody would use that to make games

You're right, I haven't actually used that software, but I've read about it on forums etc. Stencyl has a full free operational version with a link to stencyl on the final game (although I don't think it's a watermark over the full game), and Blender is totally free. Working with Stencyl is a doodle, I suppose that on Blender game engine you will need coding skills.

What I wanted to remark is that we're getting into a world in which programming skills are not always needed. The word 'free' appeared like magic on that paragraph.  Durr...?
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PompiPompi
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« Reply #57 on: April 02, 2013, 10:55:08 PM »

Maybe your skills are not needed.
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petertos
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« Reply #58 on: April 02, 2013, 11:04:57 PM »

Maybe your skills are not needed.

My skills ain't needed because I have no skills... I somehow sense you are feeling offended by my comments in this thread? Are you a programmer? I'm a web designer and I'm facing the same problem, nobody needs web coding skills, webs are self-made today. This is nothing good nor bad, it depends on how you face the situation. For instance, I believe there are opportunities in creating engines or modifying them, it is just that we're starting to have some open-source reliable software, now that coding business is getting mature.

I think it is something we all have to face. And the first ones who face it will strike double and make profit out of this scenario. It happens the same way always.

If you change your point of view, we can say that graphics are getting into a commodity status because there are lots of royalty free libraries to choose graphics from...
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Evan Balster
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« Reply #59 on: April 02, 2013, 11:10:14 PM »

Programming is a strange profession.  If you hire cheaply you'll get individuals with student levels of experience.  These people will pour hours upon hours into simple tasks that experienced programmers can achieve in a tenth of the time; learning to work efficiently and stand upon the shoulders of giants is something that's acquired slowly.

Essentially, if you pay any less than $25 per hour you'll get something like a student.  If you pay $40-50 per hour and choose a contractor with a good reputation you'll find they can do more work for the dollar, faster and better, than the kiddies.  But hey, you can always pay a meager lump sum and get some poor sap to spend months creating a buggy hackfest for you while going grievously over-schedule.  It'll look great on his resume!


I might make a point of posting some general advice for freelancers on this forum.
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