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[Klaim]

What I wanted to remark is that we're getting into a world in which programming skills are not always needed.

I think that's really the other way around. Lack of programming skills shows strong limits very quickly. Which is one reason why most successful indie devs says you'd better have at least basic programming skills to make games, whatever your role in a team.

[nikki]

Code:

we're getting into a world in which programming skills are not always needed. 

sure, me I usually just think of something and then my computer does it for me, occasionaly I write some ones and zero's on a piece of paper just so I feel needed.

[InfiniteStateMachine]

I have a feeling PR will not be replying to this thread because the answers to his question were not to his taste.

[Udderdude]

Labor market forces don't exist!  I should be able to find programmers eager to work for 10 cents an hour!  Race to the bottom is a good thing!  Rabble rabble

[J-Snake]

There is a similar debate going on about math-skills, speculating that the increased power of tools like matlab, maple etc. might do the math-job for you. However I still think it is the engineer who has to develop and evaluate algorithms for whatever specific task he is facing. The tools support him on his way but they cannot replace him.

Regarding the programming field, I think the results of just using a "lego-system" without programming will be characteristic . You can express an infinite amount of things that way, however there is also an infinite amount of thngs you cannot express that way. So programming-skills will always be required whenever you want to create something new or something more specific (and of course there has to be someone who is creating those "lego-systems" in the first place).

[petertos]

Seems like the tagline of the thread is getting close to something like 'programmers are not needed', and like if it is something I am strongly promoting or the like.

Perhaps coding, or programming, like maths, are 'evolving', and a strong coder is less needed than someone who can 'connect the dots' and make a machine do what he/she wants. In math, there are two opposite fields, and those are 'comprehension' and 'arithmetics'. What is clear is that, like hard coding, the arithmetic field is being replaced by computers. I don't usually perform sum and multiply operations myself, I have even almost forgotten the basic multiplying table, but when designing a game for instance, I have to make top level decisions like whether using an exponential or square curve for the acceleration of a body, for instance.

To me it's clear that in the website field the 'coding' section is clearly disappearing from the final user experience, and Stencyl engine has replaced, perhaps in a marketing way, the 'coding' or 'programming' section by a section called 'logic', which makes indeed much more sense due to the nature of the operations there performed.  

[J-Snake]

My estimation is that even in unity or game-maker you still take a heavy load on coding for your game.

[nikki]

what sort of websites do you mean ?

because the ones listed here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_popular_websites
are build with 'coding' as far as I know.

do you mean stuff like tumblr blogs and forums like here ?

or do you mean drupal and etc being used in large websites ?

[InfiniteStateMachine]

annnnnd there goes the focus of the thread.

[petertos]

what sort of websites do you mean ?
because the ones listed here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_popular_websites
are build with 'coding' as far as I know.
do you mean stuff like tumblr blogs and forums like here ?
or do you mean drupal and etc being used in large websites ?

Website building is being affected by what I call 'The couch potato programmer paradox', this means that today a non programmer can setup a complex site, be it a blog, forum, or corporate web, in no time without to code. Wordpress, Joomla and Drupal have each almost a plugin for anything you may need to implement on your website. In Wordpress, plugins are automatically installed. Other trend is that hosting/programming are melting. There are several hosts that let you create an online store in a doodle without knowing the least small programming notion. All this is true, it's here and it's working already. Of course, somebody has to back code that, but the reality is that the final user doesn't need to code at all.

There is even more. The appearance of Ruby on Rails framework and language is making programmers work less because it comes with built-in libraries to make complex environments quickly.  Coders are becoming couch potatoes programmers because they don't have to do anything.

And this trend is, in my opinion, landing into games. There are several engines like Stencyl (I always mention it but believe me, I'm not getting paid), which come with built-in games styles like Tower Defence, Space Shooter, Angry Birds like, and more, in which you just have to set the graphics, backgrounds and sounds and you're done.

I can say more about this but currently I'm writing from an iPad and I'm getting tired of typing with just two fingers

[Mister Dave]

Whenever I read something like this I want to point her/him to the Dunning-Kruger effect. It's really important for everyone, not just the OP. For every topic you're familiar with there's a hundred topics of which you read just a few catchwords in a newspaper. And you'll feel much better about your knowledge than you actually are. Be aware of this, don't come across as an idiot.

I like this post.

[Mister Dave]

"I wish I could be paying millions in taxes..." lol

And perhaps that you hadn't mentioned the pay scale. That seems to be the shift in the subject that's derailed your question.

[J-Snake]

And this trend is, in my opinion, landing into games. There are several engines like Stencyl (I always mention it but believe me, I'm not getting paid), which come with built-in games styles like Tower Defence, Space Shooter, Angry Birds like, and more, in which you just have to set the graphics, backgrounds and sounds and you're done.

Unfortunately this is true given the amount of tools there already exist. For example I developed everything from scratch assuring everything works fine and then you put it next to thousends of lego-assembled games. The problem is often the user won't tell a difference in quality just by looking at it on the first glance. The difference in quality between someone who knows what he is doing and someone who doesn't will at least show when he plays it.

[InfiniteStateMachine]

I have a feeling PR will not be replying to this thread because the answers to his question were not to his taste.

 

[Zenfar]

Yes. But the point is that those people do agree with the budget, and also there are places in the world where that amount is 2 months of salary or more...

When a programmer comes in with that low of a bid they don't know what they are agreeing too.  Why not learn to code yourself?

[Udderdude]

How is this thread not dead yet?

[Xienen]

How is this thread not dead yet?

Seriously!

[Klaim]

Like all zombie threads, it's just going meta.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

Yes. But the point is that those people do agree with the budget, and also there are places in the world where that amount is 2 months of salary or more...

When a programmer comes in with that low of a bid they don't know what they are agreeing too.  Why not learn to code yourself?

another note: the contract is for 6 months of work, not 2 months. saying 'i'll pay you 2 months salary to work for me for 6 months' isn't really a good deal, not even in the third world

[petertos]

Although my opinions in this thread may look off-topic, I suggest PR (the creator of the thread) took a look at the options available in which no programmer is needed. Perhaps they fit his needs!