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998023 Posts in 39133 Topics- by 30539 Members - Latest Member: bigalphillips

April 17, 2014, 07:26:57 AM
TIGSource ForumsDeveloperCreativeDesignFor Discussion: How do you handle losing in your game?
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Author Topic: For Discussion: How do you handle losing in your game?  (Read 1613 times)
ஒழுக்கின்மை
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RinkuHero
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« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2013, 10:40:41 PM »

even there, it's a relatively short platformer; i'm not sure permadeath would work in every genre

one idea i liked from resident evil 1 was to have a limited number of times you could save (saving required ink ribbons in that game). they took it away in the latter RE games but i thought it was a pretty great idea, since it made you have to ration out when you saved your game. it'd be interesting to have a game with "save state" like saving, but only have a limited number of times that the player could save their game that way
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Lemongrab
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« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2013, 04:20:00 PM »

um, isn't losing the very definition of fun? so making losing fun is kinda like making fun fun lol. take music for example. contrary to popular belief THERE IS LOSING IN MUSIC! in fact, losing is precisely why we love music. when we immediately win the music we call it repetitive or simplistic or simply boring. shit like that. now, in music, its kinda hard to get it, but there is indeed losing. to enjoy music means to predict how's the music gonna unfold, it means to make shit up (i.e. fantasize a pattern) and then to put it to a test.. the test then is SUPPOSED to kill your little fantasy so that you have to, once again, guess what the real pattern is. if you guess it right away then it's boring! so in music, you see, like everywhere else, we only really enjoy these little fantasies, all of them false, we make up in our heads. when we figure out the truth, memorize the music, we get bored and move on. same is with everything else.. like proper games. you get what im saying? so, the bigger issue here is not to make losing fun for losing is by definition fun but to seduce the player so that he is motivated to fantasize an idea, a solution, a pattern, whateverthefuck. if they are not inspired to HOPE then they will quit. so how do you do this in video games? well.. lemme see.. through art? theme? locked content? making coherent world? blending mechanics with aesthetics and making them one? i dont know dude it comes intuitively to me.
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Udderdude
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« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2013, 04:41:37 PM »

Wait what?  Are you the new Graham?
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Lemongrab
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« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2013, 04:44:50 PM »

Wait what?  Are you the new Graham?

hohohohoho.

no.
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ThemsAllTook
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« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2013, 05:02:54 PM »

you get what im saying?

Nope. WTF
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Konidias
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« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2013, 11:47:39 AM »

Quote
i dont know dude it comes intuitively to me.

I think that is possibly the most useless answer I've ever seen in my entire life.

"Hey Michael Jordan, how do you play basketball so well?"

"I don't know dude, it comes intuitively to me."

"Thanks, Mr. Jordan!"
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Lemongrab
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« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2013, 12:00:35 PM »

i wrote a lengthy response to clear things up but i was too lazy to finish it so i was like "fuck it man" and deleted it.
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Konidias
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« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2013, 12:01:50 PM »

Probably for the best. lol Tongue
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Lemongrab
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« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2013, 12:05:48 PM »

the point being that all activities are games. and when i say activities i also mean mental activities like, say, thinking. now instead of thinking that losing is something unique to video games you can also take a look at other art forms and learn from them (e.g. music, films, novels.. all of them involving losing without which they can't work) rendering all "how to make losing fun" questions dumb if not nonsensical.
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Konidias
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« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2013, 12:11:34 PM »

Lemongrab, you are talking about losing on a micro scale... we are talking about losing on a macro scale.
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siskavard
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« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2013, 12:11:43 PM »

I rage quit really hard. I hate losing. I'm not proud of it, & I always try to calmly walk away, but that usually never happens.

The only time I ever felt 'good' about dying was in Super Meat Boy. I would literally laugh out loud every time I lost. I think it's because that game is so challenging & you know when you're playing it that it's completely YOUR fault if you fuck up.

Overall though, the point of losing a game is that you aren't good enough to win it. If losing it fun, then it feels very 'everyone gets a reward for trying' which is crap.
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Lemongrab
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« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2013, 12:14:44 PM »

Lemongrab, you are talking about losing on a micro scale... we are talking about losing on a macro scale.

and what is the difference between the two?
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Konidias
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« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2013, 12:17:27 PM »

I think avoiding the "rage" is what we're trying to figure out in this thread. A lot of it stems from the player feeling as though the loss was out of their control. (broken game, cheating AI, actual cheaters in an online game, etc)

The "cheap deaths" in a game, or the "leap of faith jumps" in a platformer are ways that make losing a frustrating experience.

It's not so much about what penalties you place on a player for losing... it's more about how they lost in the first place.

As siskavard mentioned, he laughed when he lost in SMB because he felt like it was his own mistakes that caused the loss. If he had jumped off a platform in SMB and just fallen to his death from an offscreen obstacle he couldn't predict, then he would no longer be laughing.

You can actually punish a player pretty severely as long as your game doesn't have these frustrating loss situations. That's why some classic games with no save points or limited lives are still considered to be so great. You felt like it was your fault for screwing up and losing, not because the game cheated you in some way. You are more willing to play through an entire level again when you lost because of your own mistakes.
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Konidias
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« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2013, 12:21:15 PM »

Lemongrab, you are talking about losing on a micro scale... we are talking about losing on a macro scale.

and what is the difference between the two?
The size. Cool
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ThemsAllTook
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« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2013, 12:45:18 PM »

You felt like it was your fault for screwing up and losing, not because the game cheated you in some way. You are more willing to play through an entire level again when you lost because of your own mistakes.

Yep, that's the key. Since assigning blame is unproductive in most other situations, you might intuitively think to avoid it in games, but putting responsibility for losing squarely on the player's shoulders is actually the best thing to do. Not to say you need to mock them or anything, just be indifferent. This article talks about indifference in Super Hexagon, though it's a lot less in depth than I remembered...

Perhaps the most frustrating thing in a game is to have control taken away from you. If I lose control due to some game mechanic and die as a result, or if I'm in an unwinnable situation that lasts for more than a second or two before losing, I can't blame myself as easily for screwing up. As long as it's clear that I'm at fault and can improve by playing more, that's my motivation to keep going.
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