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October 01, 2014, 10:17:29 AM
TIGSource ForumsDeveloperCreative (Moderator: John Sandoval)I just posted this on r/gaming, they told me to come here
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Author Topic: I just posted this on r/gaming, they told me to come here  (Read 3336 times)
John Sandoval
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« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2013, 10:28:49 AM »

i'd never fund anyone who hasn't proven themselves with previous work before, esp. for games

just look at these forums, what percentage of all games started end up becoming vaporware? something like 80 percent? maybe 90 for people who haven't finished anything before

games take a lot more work than people often realize
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« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2013, 11:15:22 AM »

No one Cares About Your Cool Game Idea
Except when your idea got 3000 up votes in Reddit in less than 24 hours Smiley It changes the traditional rules of development.

Considering that's the community that upvotes fucking Legend of Zelda cakes to the front page every day, no it doesn't.
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« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2013, 05:19:31 PM »

Even when you have something finished before, new ambition is like starting over.
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ILLOGICAL, random guy on internet, do not trust (lelebĉcülo dum borobürükiss)
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« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2013, 04:46:27 PM »

Wow a lot of hate here, sorry for whatever i did.

 Anyways a quick update.

  I teamed up with a an awesome experienced game dev, Gavin http://www.gmtdev.com/blog/
He has taught me a ton about organization in game development, and given me some confidence going forward.

 I have been working on and finishing various animations though spine, tiles and sprites, as well as some larger assets for websites and such. After a few weeks working with Gavin we have come to the conclusion that for the game to be as good as it can we need to bring in a few more people, so now I am compiling a list of people with experience who have expressed interest to include in this team, so far I have 6 coders, 2 sound artists, a writer, and a filmmaker interested.


Does anyone know of a good resource for indie to seek cheap legal advice on structuring a project like this?



 If you are interested e-mail me at [email protected] I appreciate all the positive advice and feedback displayed in this thread so far. Cheers! -Kyle
« Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 06:53:16 PM by Nasturtium » Logged
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« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2013, 06:45:57 AM »

so far I have 6 coders, 2 sound artists, a writer, and a filmmaker interested.
Stop it right here, you are commiting a suicide. It is a simple game, you need only 1 coder (OK maybe 2 if they like working with each other, but that's an absolute maximum). The last thing you need is a big team that wastes your time talking and talking forever. Don't forget that people are never free (even if they work for free), each adds management overhead, and suck out your (the project's manager) the stamina which you might need for other things. Make as small of a team as possible and go for a rapid prototype stage.

Quote
that for the game to be as good as it can
First make a playable fun prototype (in a reasonable amount of time). You can worry about making the game perfect later (preferably never, all the games that I have seen that were designed to be as good as possible turned out crap and/or unfinished).

Finish your FIRST game, then come back and we can talk about perfection Smiley Really, I don't know why all those people who are new to this so hugely underestimate an effort required to make a game that is decent and does not crash... It is difficult enough to finish your first game even without adding perfection to the mix.
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« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2013, 08:22:25 AM »

so far I have 6 coders, 2 sound artists, a writer, and a filmmaker interested.
Stop it right here, you are commiting a suicide. It is a simple game, you need only 1 coder (OK maybe 2 if they like working with each other, but that's an absolute maximum). The last thing you need is a big team that wastes your time talking and talking forever. Don't forget that people are never free (even if they work for free), each adds management overhead, and suck out your (the project's manager) the stamina which you might need for other things. Make as small of a team as possible and go for a rapid prototype stage.

Quote
that for the game to be as good as it can
First make a playable fun prototype (in a reasonable amount of time). You can worry about making the game perfect later (preferably never, all the games that I have seen that were designed to be as good as possible turned out crap and/or unfinished).

Finish your FIRST game, then come back and we can talk about perfection Smiley Really, I don't know why all those people who are new to this so hugely underestimate an effort required to make a game that is decent and does not crash... It is difficult enough to finish your first game even without adding perfection to the mix.

 I see, well as I stated, they are interested, I am currently trying to figure out who will be the best fit. People keep telling me in all kinds of different ways that I am going to fail at whatever I try.  I understand completely  that making a successful game is a  monumental undertaking full of pitfalls. I get it. Should I just give up then before I try? I have generated all this interest in my ideas, I did not expect to, but if I try nothing then I could never forgive myself.

 All I can do is take things one step at a time.

Step1. Get people interested in my idea. check.
Step2. Write out a game design document. check.
Step3. Contact the people who are interested. check.

 I don't get it, what have I done wrong so far.

 My next step as I see it to research what kind of legal documents I need in place to protect everyone involved so, even if we accomplish nothing at all, we can approach each other from a position of trust.

 I will ask again, does any one know a good resource for indie game devs to find good legal advice on creating a team.

 
« Last Edit: May 05, 2013, 08:28:15 AM by Nasturtium » Logged
John Sandoval
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« Reply #26 on: May 05, 2013, 08:37:24 AM »

you really don't want that much overhead when you don't even have a prototype set up

dealing with/managing a large team is a huge hassle. hurt egos, communication difficulties, all multiplied by N members. like you're saying, you're putting together all these legal documents/infrastructure before you even have any sort of product available.

always try to make a prototype before deciding to include more people; making drastic changes to gameplay/how the game runs is much, much easier when you dont have too many other people to debate it with/keep updated. also you avoid the chance of having people's work suddenly become unnecessary/outdated (ie art assets for a feature that no longer exists)

after the prototype is done, and you have a good idea of what works/what you need, then go ahead and add as many people as you want.

Wow a lot of hate here, sorry for whatever i did.

not hate, just realism. nobody's working themselves into a raging froth over your game idea.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2013, 08:50:28 AM by John Sandoval » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2013, 08:28:11 AM »

People keep telling me in all kinds of different ways that I am going to fail at whatever I try.
Isn't it (telling people that they will fail) one of the greatest joys of life? :D As long as it is not you who is telling it to yourself you should be fine.

As for what you did wrong, well you got a good start. An idea that was interesting to people, quite nice personality (which is rare) and more or less solid designable idea.
Then you side tracked. Instead of trying to make a prototype you started worrying about building a team and about legal advices... It all does not matter, what matters is the game. You need to make it as fast as possible.

You are an artist, right? Find ONE coder and both make a prototype.

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Europe1300 - Realistic Historical Medieval Sim
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« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2013, 08:56:51 AM »

I'm just going to say, if you interpret the comments in this thread as "hating" you are going to have a very tough time making a game.  It requires a pretty thick skin to be able to handle the inevitable criticism that is going to come up (99% of which will be much more "hateful" than the comments in this thread).
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« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2013, 11:46:28 PM »

You are an artist, right? Find ONE coder and both make a prototype.

This.
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« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2013, 02:57:14 AM »

Wow a lot of hate here, sorry for whatever i did.

Don't take it personally, it's just constructive criticism from us who've seen hundreds of "ideas people" spend all their time organising things and never actually making a game.

You seem like a smart guy who understands how much work this is going to be and have a passion for actually making it happen (rather than just talking) so you're already way ahead of all those ideas people and if you keep it up this is going to go far.

Just don't overextend yourself, get a minimum possible game done (even just a battle simulator would be a good start) then have people play it and keep improving. This is more important than building a big team or planning every detail.

Good luck! Smiley
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« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2013, 12:38:49 PM »

Thanks for the encouragement, I was getting down there for a while.  I guess now that I have so many people involved in this project, even if I have most of them leave, I know I can already count on a few of them staying around and moving forward.

  So far we have agreed on a language to use, a tentative legal document, everyone organized and on the same page on Asana, and a lively discussion on some game design elements. I am learning a lot already and enjoying myself immensely, even if nothing comes of this I will be pretty happy to have initiated it.

Here are some art assets I have been working on.

Gui menu: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1201375/Circular-menu.gif

Splash screen: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1201375/SplashScreen.gif

 I am simply going to continue to develop the art style and visual elements of this game, no matter what ends up happening. It is fun.

 I am starting to play around with Spine animator, with some success and learning a bunch about animation.

 It is apparent that the main bottleneck will be art, I need to fiund some more doodlers who want to be involved, and soon. None of the art is very complicated so far and it does not need to be, I am hoping to recruit amateurs and people who just want to flesh out their portfolio, it seems after reading lots of other peoples game design experiences that this is a common problem.  I actually think that me being an artist first is starting to be an big asset to team building.

  Please keep the advice coming, thanks to everyone who has responded so far.
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« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2013, 02:14:28 PM »

It is apparent that the main bottleneck will be art
Impossible. Totally impossible Smiley
But as a programmer I feel flattered by your trust in our kind, althrough I suspect your trust in our kind will be shattered somewhere in the middle of the project Smiley But that's normal.

Anyway, I will repeat myself. Go for a prototype ASAP, ignore art at this stage. You NEED a quick prototype more than water a tourist lost in Sachara.

Watch this (first episode or two):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTM7TT7bOUk&list=PL010D4EC849B9671D&index=1

And a personal advice, give your programmers some deadline/schedule (or ask them to determine the exact date by them since "you don't know anything about programming and can't estimate this yourself and you respect their knowledge/whatever"), be prepared that some/half/most will quit when they hear this (but that's OK).
And a second advice, when they fail to deliever by the date they said they would do not shout at them, just come back here and ask what to do next Smiley Just be prepared that the date they give will need to be extended 3 times (if you are lucky). In the unlikely event that they deliver on time feel free to be shocked and tell them that they are the best coders on this planet Smiley
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« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2013, 02:42:37 PM »

It is apparent that the main bottleneck will be art
Impossible. Totally impossible Smiley

 I say that because I have 4 programmers currently working with me, and only one other part time artist, thanks for the video link.
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