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998825 Posts in 39180 Topics- by 30592 Members - Latest Member: JuegoStudio

April 21, 2014, 04:10:35 AM
TIGSource ForumsDeveloperCreativeDesignHow something that has design in it's name can be considered an art?
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Author Topic: How something that has design in it's name can be considered an art?  (Read 2448 times)
TheLastBanana
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« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2013, 01:14:24 PM »

That was actually JulioRodrigues talking about Tetris, but I agree that every game has a narrative of some kind, regardless of whether or not it's an explicit story. No need to apologize about your remark, either! I've just been thinking about meaning in games lately, and your post brought it to mind. Smiley

You're right about the cultural impact of games I hadn't really thought about those kinds of influences. We're also seeing the rise of gamification, which looks like it's going to have a pretty huge effect on culture. It seems like culture is largely drawing its inspiration from the aesthetics of games. You could say the same for movies, given the fascination in the last century with Hollywood, or even from the point of view of games, given the focus in AAA video games on huge, cinematic environments. So, perhaps I was looking at this from the wrong point of view!
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Muz
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« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2013, 01:29:30 AM »

My definition of art is simply something that evokes a mindset of beauty, or other strong emotions that the viewer enjoys. Love songs/plays/movies are powerful art because it triggers the emotions and memories associated with love. The more the viewer relates to it, the more the user can spot the subtle hidden bits, the more of an art it is. My favorite work of art are war memorials... while they're rarely ever 'beautiful', many do a good job of capturing the pain, tragedy, sacrifice, devotion, relief, and comradeship of a specific war.

As with things like philosophy, management, and psychology, art has become too 'academical'. A lot of the people who specialize it have no fucking idea what they're doing, so they choose to make it inaccessible to make it seem like something complex and difficult.

But the people who don't play games simply have no emotional attachment to games. They don't get why there's nerdrage behind WoW or why people would cosplay as a moon elf. Gamers do get emotionally attached to it. But there's little overlap between people who spend thousands trading art and driving to galleries and the people who sit at home playing Spelunky.

Games are not defined as art because the people who define art don't view them as art, and the people who view them as art don't like what society defines as art.

Art is not supposed to be this mystical thing that nobody understands except the artist. You can design for it, just find proper associations. There are two pieces of modern art which have tons of design put into them: architecture and movies.

You find patterns to bring up the art form. Sometimes you take a piece of art, iterate off it, and improve on it. Sometimes you branch a piece of art and interpret it differently - e.g. turning a strategy game like Warcraft into a MMO. All this pattern recognition and association is art.

Creativity is freedom to think. It doesn't mean you have to always think outside the box; that in itself is not freedom and quite uncreative. There's a lot of tried and functional ideas within the box... but those who know the design 'rules' should know that they are guidelines, and when to break from them.
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Accent
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« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2013, 04:18:01 AM »

Art isn't supposed to be anything

Art doesn't exist and yet everything is art
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Graham.
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« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2013, 08:57:58 AM »

Games are whatever you want them to be, if you can make them so.
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moi
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« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2013, 11:42:02 AM »

every snowflake is a unique snowflake
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thersus
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« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2013, 02:27:08 PM »

You've mentioned academic research into synthesis of narrative and gameplay a few times. Do you know of any specific articles on the subject? I'd be interested in reading about it. I figure there's no better way to look into how that can be done than to give it a shot myself, so any existing theory on the subject would probably be helpful.

The first thing that came to mind is this edital of a seminar that happened here in Brazil a while ago - it was the fourth edition, I think it occurs every two years. This one was in 2011. Hope you understand portuguese or know some good translator (better translate the page, and see if some title catches your attention, then translate the pdfs): http://aplicweb.feevale.br/site/hotsite/default.asp?intIdHotSite=126&intIdSecao=4833&intIdConteudo=47360
I'm citing this edition specifically because I was there wathcing the work groups and saw the kind of discussion that I mentioned early. Looking at the papers references section is aways a good idea, too.
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Alec S.
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« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2013, 02:37:22 PM »

Games don't have to be narrative driven to be art, and not all art is about encodings some meaning into a piece.  Art can be primarily aesthetic or emotional, as in a Romantic classical piece, a piece of Abstract Expressionist art.  I would say this is also true for tetris.

Art can also attempt to capture and portray some element in life (just as a painting can capture scenery or a face).  In this case it will probably still convey some position on its subject matter, just as two paintings of the same face could convey different emotions.  Two most enduring works of art in the medium of games, Chess and Go, both are portrayals of warfare, but they say different things about war through their rulesets.
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siegfried
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« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2013, 02:38:43 PM »

Quote
I feel like one of the main reasons that games are still struggling as an art is that people seem to feel like there's a distinction between gameplay and narrative.

story is the name we give to a game in which the player does nothing but observe what everyone else is doing. so the distinction between stories and games -- the sole distinction -- is that stories are based on spectator role and games are based on actor role. so video games do not really tell stories -- they are simply stories++ (and if you simply watch them played by someone else they become mere stories.)

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This morning, I was thinking, does abstract game mechanics, without a theme for them, can convey messages?

anything can carry messages e.g. my poop carries all sorts of messages about me, doctors know that very well.

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You've mentioned academic research into synthesis of narrative and gameplay a few times.

let's say that by narrative you mean story and by gameplay you mean mechanics. you imply that they are hard to synthesize but i find this strange since it's very easy for me to demonstrate that stories are games and thus, mechanical. but i need a sample of a story in order to do that which im too lazy to find right now so maybe another time.

so let's try the short explanation: in stories we make decisions but we do not act them.

Quote
Art doesn't exist and yet everything is art

listening not to me but to logos admit that all is one.
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thersus
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« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2013, 02:41:56 PM »

I think we are going nowhere in this discussion since the beginning lol
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TheLastBanana
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« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2013, 03:55:13 PM »

let's say that by narrative you mean story and by gameplay you mean mechanics. you imply that they are hard to synthesize but i find this strange since it's very easy for me to demonstrate that stories are games and thus, mechanical. but i need a sample of a story in order to do that which im too lazy to find right now so maybe another time.
You can argue that a story is a game without interaction. You can also argue that a novel is a movie without visuals and audio, or that paintings are poetry without words. I don't think those are really useful descriptions, though it's just a way of trivializing the issues at hand. Each of those art forms has a unique way of expressing itself (an artistic "language") which has been developed over several centuries, and, at least in my opinion, what makes each art form interesting is not the similarities to other art forms, but the differences.

My point is that video games have only existed in their current form for less than a century, and that their language is still developing. As such, bringing together a game's story and play mechanics together to create one cohesive meaning is, while theoretically possible, still not something that I feel has been accomplished satisfactorily. Yes, technically, every single game (or, as you argue, every single story) does this in one way or another. You can interpret meaning from just about anything. But from the point of view of a creator rather than a beholder, I don't think the problem is quite as trivial as you suggest. I feel like the stance that games let you have infinitely many meanings is a bit of a cop-out; there's potential for more than that. That said, creating game mechanics which are simultaneously intentionally meaningful and entertaining is not necessarily an easy task.

Granted, as Alec pointed out, "encoded" meaning doesn't always have to be present in art, and I agree with him. Again, I'm not saying that this is the only way to create art, which is why I've avoided trying to define art. I'm just looking at one unique aspect of games  (play mechanics) and discussing how it can be used to produce one effect which is commonly discussed in art (meaning). Perhaps that's out of place in this topic, and if that's the case, then I apologize for bringing it up.

Also, thersus, thanks for the link! I'll have to take a look at it once exam season is over. Hopefully Google Translate won't butcher the articles too much. Cheesy
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C.A. Sinner
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« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2013, 04:32:39 PM »

Games don't have to be narrative driven to be art, and not all art is about encodings some meaning into a piece.  Art can be primarily aesthetic or emotional, as in a Romantic classical piece, a piece of Abstract Expressionist art.  I would say this is also true for tetris.
yeah that's true and i don't like how these "games as art" discussions often boil down to "meanings" and "messages".
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antoniodamala
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« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2013, 05:16:16 PM »

Semiotics, everyone.
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JulioRodrigues
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« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2013, 06:52:12 PM »

yeah that's true and i don't like how these "games as art" discussions often boil down to "meanings" and "messages".

Why you don't like that? And why do you think that this situation often repeats from time to time?

And another question for Alec S. How can something meaningless (for the observer) evoke any emotion?
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John Sandoval
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« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2013, 07:03:22 PM »

everything is meaningless

emotions are the byproduct of chemical reactions in our brain

*farts profusely into the sunset*
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Leon Fook
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« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2013, 07:42:34 PM »

Do art really need to evoke emotion, then they only can be called "art"? Because it's certainly bug me that people keep saying that art has to have a meaning to be called art.
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