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[Blambo]

PCGamer released this preview of Hotline Miami 2, and TL:DR, the game's pretty similar and there's a lot of cool stuff being added, but there's an implied rape scene in it.

Not sure how I feel about this, but in the context of Hotline Miami it feels like it's put in there for a reason, like it's the next step in the sort of "shock" value necessary in portraying desensitization of the main character akin to the ridiculous violence in both games.

Do you guys think it crosses a line? Like is Hotline Miami still responsible for the tropes it practices in the context of society, even though it provides commentary on it and is self-aware? Should its violence then be treated the same way?

I hope we have a civil discussion about this. Though if the mods feel uneasy, I think it's appropriate to drome or delete this thread if it progresses in an unfavorable direction.

[NoUU]

Here's a video on the subject I watched a bit ago that makes some points I agree with.






edit: Although I'm not as quick to call people "a terrible human being" as he is.

[Blambo]

Totally agree, actually. Art and media shouldn't be censored for a minority, and video games are no different, but an opposite point would be that gamers have an intrinsic basic motivation to progress, and that motivation (plus the direct responsibility of action in games) mixed with weird shit would be somehow more violent and affecting, which I sort of agree with.

[joseph ¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

I liked HLM a lot and think the plot was ok. Im not sure that cactus is the man to thoughtfully tackle rape, but w/e.

[Superb Joe]

i think from the very first time we kicked a soccer ball as ryo hazuki we all knew that this was headed down a path of sexual violence qtes programmed by a swedish virgin who hasnt had a haircut in 7 years

[Superb Joe]

Jonathan Sodastream is about to make you his bitch.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i think it's reasonable to request an option in the options screen to not show it or skip it in-game, similar to many other options games tend to have, e.g. a no blood option in fighting games, a no curses filter in MMO's. if it were my game, i wouldn't remove it completely, but i'd make it an option in the options screen and make clear to players that it's in there and that they can play the game without having to see it if they have a problem with it

i don't think it's "censorship" at all to do that, censorship is when someone else forcibly changes your work, not when you are asked to make changes and voluntarily do so, so the accusations of censorship are incredibly stupid

basically, as a game designer, you want to make your game accessible to your fans however possible. adding an option to skip it for people who can't play the game otherwise is no different to me than, say, adding a color blind mode for people who can't mechanically play the game because they are color blind

also, it's not only "feminists" who have a problem with rape in games. there's also non-feminists who have been raped, christian/conservative parents also don't want their kids playing games like that, and so on. so it's not like feminists are the only people you are alienating by including rape in a game, there's a ton of people who won't be playing your game if you add stuff like that in. i don't usually think that trade-off is worth it, especially considering games exist to be played. why would you purposefully put something in that limits the audience so much? it's like deciding to write your game in esperanto rather than english

[antoniodamala]

I think it works in the games argument. I don't know.

[Fallsburg]

Here's a video on the subject I watched a bit ago that makes some points I agree with.






edit: Although I'm not as quick to call people "a terrible human being" as he is.

God, I can hear the fedora in his voice.

[NoUU]

there's a ton of people who won't be playing your game if you add stuff like that in. i don't usually think that trade-off is worth it, especially considering games exist to be played. why would you purposefully put something in that limits the audience so much? it's like deciding to write your game in esperanto rather than english

Sometimes making a point is worth limiting your audience. The devs of HM aren't just putting this stuff in because, theres things they want you take away from the experience. Pulp Fiction has a lot of stuff that people find offensive, but it's also a very popular movie and I don't think it would be if they'd tried to make it for everyone.

And I don't see a problem with having an option to skip scenes with that kind of stuff if there's people who legitimately want to play your game but can't because of a few parts of the game. If the developer wants to.

God, I can hear the fedora in his voice.

Yeah I just realized the first 30 seconds of that video are him describing an arguement on twitter he had. Sorry 

[ThemsAllTook]

christian/conservative parents also don't want their kids playing games like that

It would surprise me if this was the first thing that made them not want their kids to play Hotline Miami! Definitely an issue if an otherwise innocuous game includes an out-of-place rape scene, but this particular game already has loads of shock value from ultraviolence.

i don't usually think that trade-off is worth it, especially considering games exist to be played. why would you purposefully put something in that limits the audience so much?

I can respect intentionally limiting your audience, if being inclusive would dilute the artistic message of a game. Not saying that's necessarily the case here, but I don't see making your game appeal to the widest possible audience as a no-brainer. Adding an option to turn it off isn't entirely unreasonable, but the paragraph you edited into your post at the end seems to be arguing for not including it at all?

Also, I have to question how much this actually limits Hotline Miami's already somewhat specific audience. Seems to me like it would only exclude a very small fraction of people who would even be playing the game in the first place.

[Superb Joe]

Sometimes making a point is worth limiting your audience. The devs of HM aren't just putting this stuff in because, theres things they want you take away from the experience.

hmm, bad things happen in thew orld. really makes u think... *stands on cliff edge staring out at the world below* my eyes finally open... so different from the other ppl... from here on out i stand alone

[joseph ¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

Sometimes making a point is worth limiting your audience. The devs of HM aren't just putting this stuff in because, theres things they want you take away from the experience. Pulp Fiction has a lot of stuff that people find offensive, but it's also a very popular movie and I don't think it would be if they'd tried to make it for everyone.

Yeah, but Pulp Fiction is a much classier, more subtle, and more respectful approach to issues of violence and sexual violence than a game like HLM, where it's like, HA HA, IT'S A MOVIE, YOU SEE?

Like, look, cactus, you are preparing to enter a fight where you get outclassed by this guy

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

Sometimes making a point is worth limiting your audience. The devs of HM aren't just putting this stuff in because, theres things they want you take away from the experience. Pulp Fiction has a lot of stuff that people find offensive, but it's also a very popular movie and I don't think it would be if they'd tried to make it for everyone.

most of this is true, there are a lot of differences. e.g. one thing is, pulp fiction has a rating, so people who go into it know what to expect, whereas hotline doesn't (steam games / internet-only games aren't rated by the ESRB). so the chance of someone who has been raped or some innocent kid accidentally watching pulp fiction and without realizing it has rape in it is very low, compared to the chance with hotline

also, regarding that video with the dinosaur, the violence is obvious in the advertisements and screenshots of the game, nobody plays hotline miami thinking it's a nonviolent game, so that's why it's not an issue / comparable

Also, I have to question how much this actually limits Hotline Miami's already somewhat specific audience. Seems to me like it would only exclude a very small fraction of people who would even be playing the game in the first place.

hotline sold in the millions. that's not a specific audience, that's mass media at this point. we can probably expect similar numbers for the second one (which is why they are making it). it's not some rare game that sells a few thousand copies, it's a huge hit. it actually is *bigger* in audience size than pulp fiction (the movie mentioned above), at least on release

[NoUU]

one thing is, pulp fiction has a rating, so people who go into it know what to expect, whereas hotline doesn't (steam games / internet-only games aren't rated by the ESRB)

Hotline Miami actually is rated, here's a screenshot from it's steam page.



And the video on the steam page (that automatically started playing for me) shows the character using a drill on someones head in the first 30 seconds. I don't think the chance of someone buying Hotline Miami and not knowing what it is are very high.

[ThemsAllTook]

hotline sold in the millions. that's not a specific audience, that's mass media at this point. we can probably expect similar numbers for the second one (which is why they are making it). it's not some rare game that sells a few thousand copies, it's a huge hit. it actually is *bigger* in audience size than pulp fiction (the movie mentioned above), at least on release

Oh interesting, I didn't actually know that. Puts it in a slightly different perspective. Still, ESRB rating or no, the entire game is made of hyperviolence, so it quite plainly paints itself as not being for kids or sensitive people. Yes, sensitivity to violence is different from sensitivity to rape, but I'm not sure why one is considered to be of such lesser importance than the other. The game already treats human life with such little regard that including a depiction of nonconsensual sex (which according to the game's canon is staged, even!) ought not to cause people to bat an eye. It's an extremely selective and internally inconsistent form of sensitivity.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

@NoUU

that's metascore, not rating in the sense movies are rated (G / PG / PG-13 / R / X). that's similar to how many stars a movie has out of five. that's a rating of quality, not a content rating

regarding the violence, did you read this part of my reply?

also, regarding that video with the dinosaur, the violence is obvious in the advertisements and screenshots of the game, nobody plays hotline miami thinking it's a nonviolent game, so that's why it's not an issue / comparable

i specifically said that the chances of someone not knowing the game is violent is almost nothing. but the chances of someone not knowing the game has rape in it will be much higher, considering that it's a tiny element that happens once in the game rather than the focus

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

Oh interesting, I didn't actually know that. Puts it in a slightly different perspective. Still, ESRB rating or no, the entire game is made of hyperviolence, so it quite plainly paints itself as not being for kids or sensitive people. Yes, sensitivity to violence is different from sensitivity to rape, but I'm not sure why one is considered to be of such lesser importance than the other. The game already treats human life with such little regard that including a depiction of nonconsensual sex (which according to the game's canon is staged, even!) ought not to cause people to bat an eye. It's an extremely selective and internally inconsistent form of sensitivity.

neither one should be considered of greater or lesser importance. the difference is, as i said above, that the violence is clearly marked and the rape isn't. someone who buys the game could easily not know it contains rape. nobody who buys the game would not know it contains violence. this is perfectly consistent

[NoUU]

@NoUU

that's metascore, not rating in the sense movies are rated (G / PG / PG-13 / R / X). that's similar to how many stars a movie has out of five. that's a rating of quality, not a content rating

regarding the violence, did you read this part of my reply?

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

ah, didn't see that part. i wonder why it got a rating from the ESRB when it's only sold on the internet? my impression was that you can't get an ESRB rating unless your game is physically sold in stores. will look into it