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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGamesRape in Hotline Miami 2
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Author Topic: Rape in Hotline Miami 2  (Read 50209 times)
ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #440 on: September 02, 2013, 02:19:27 AM »

no, but apparently repetition without reading the thread > reading the thread
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« Reply #441 on: September 02, 2013, 02:39:39 AM »

To me, rape is considered psychological horror, it plays on basic fears and primal impulses, it is a heated society issue that is addressed now, it has lots of grey areas, is very personal and intimate and a very powerful topic overall.

So rape > murder, in this current western cultural zeitgeist.

im just going to post this again because no one read it the first time

http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2013/06/24/who-is-to-blame-for-rape-hazing-and-bullying-its-simple-rapists-and-bullies-not-victims/
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« Reply #442 on: September 02, 2013, 02:47:23 AM »

no, but apparently repetition without reading the thread > reading the thread

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« Reply #443 on: September 02, 2013, 02:53:41 AM »

yo why are you coming in here saying basically nothing and derailing the thread
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Nektonico
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« Reply #444 on: September 02, 2013, 03:15:13 AM »

Not trying to derail the thread. My first comment still stands, considering the internet is abuzz with this. How about a mod where instead of killing the enemies and leaving them in pools of their own blood, you rape them instead and leave them in pools of semen. Would that be considered more or less offensive? Its an honest question. Are we living in a "rape culture" or in a "murder is a-ok culture"? I must know these things.

(please note i am being sarcastic  Gomez)
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« Reply #445 on: September 02, 2013, 05:05:30 AM »

what a stupid person
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #446 on: September 02, 2013, 05:30:19 AM »

it's important to point out again that self-defense isn't murder. if someone is trying to kill you and you kill them, you did *not* murder that person, you defended yourself

games where you *actually* going around murdering people who aren't attacking you are very rare, the only ones i can think of are the GTA games. and even in that game series, it isn't mandatory, you aren't *forced* to murder, it's just something you can do if you want to. games where you are *forced* to murder are extremely rare

wrpgs like the fallout series allow you to murder innocents if you wish, but very few players actually do so, they act in the 'good karma' way and avoid killing innocents. there are some players who play as an evil character and go around killing innocents, but they're less common; i read something that said that developers did a survey in fallout 3 or some similar game and found that about 90% played as a good character, 5% neutral, 5% evil.
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« Reply #447 on: September 02, 2013, 05:38:12 AM »

Not trying to derail the thread. My first comment still stands, considering the internet is abuzz with this. How about a mod where instead of killing the enemies and leaving them in pools of their own blood, you rape them instead and leave them in pools of semen. Would that be considered more or less offensive? Its an honest question. Are we living in a "rape culture" or in a "murder is a-ok culture"? I must know these things.

(please note i am being sarcastic  Gomez)
Sounds like an hentai plot right there.
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« Reply #448 on: September 02, 2013, 05:38:45 AM »

@paul: dunno if games where killing lots of basically innocent people is presented as the good and moral thing to do (in analogies for ongoing real world conflicts) is actually better than outright murder simulators though.
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« Reply #449 on: September 02, 2013, 05:44:12 AM »

BTW agency in violence and in rape in game is different:

- Violence in game is generally about decimating "defense" against people who will harm you, and stealth is fashionable
- Rape is about being a predator preying innocent

That's why the serial killer rogue like simulator got a lot of WTF. Violence on innocent is as frown in game than rape by gamer and non gamer alike.

It's a false dichotomy
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« Reply #450 on: September 02, 2013, 05:51:08 AM »

(I think you mean false equivalent)
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #451 on: September 02, 2013, 06:35:14 AM »

@paul: dunno if games where killing lots of basically innocent people is presented as the good and moral thing to do (in analogies for ongoing real world conflicts) is actually better than outright murder simulators though.

in what game are most of the enemies innocent? in a lot of games, the enemies are evil rather than innocent, and in many they are 'monsters' and not cognitive beings. or zombies, which are already dead anyway. they're usually specifically constructed so that the player wants to kill them. when a game even makes it possible to feel bad for killing the enemies it's treated as notable or an art-game
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« Reply #452 on: September 02, 2013, 06:47:26 AM »

military games mostly
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #453 on: September 02, 2013, 06:53:08 AM »

i guess that's true, but i barely ever play those. still, even in a military situation, when both sides believe they are right and have families at home and so on, it's never called murder when a soldier kills a soldier, or even when a soldier accidentally kills a civilian, it's only murder if a soldier intentionally kills a civilian. there's still a big difference between killing a guy capable of and intent on killing you (someone else armed with a gun), regardless of whether he's moral and good or not, and killing a guy who couldn't fight back (like an old man in a wheelchair or something)

a point i brought up earlier in this thread seems to apply here. people often think of child molesters as worse than murderers in prison. that's not because the crime itself is somehow "worse", the destruction is worse when you kill someone. the reason people think child molesters are worse is because they prey on the most helpless and least powerful. rape is somewhere in between murder and child molestation in terms of the powerlessness scale

it's really more about shame than sheer destructiveness. it's more shameful to molest a child than to kill 1000 soldiers in battle, even though you are causing "more" sheer destruction in the latter
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« Reply #454 on: September 02, 2013, 07:01:07 AM »

usually if youre not acting in "self defense" in videogames the people/beings/whatever youre fighting are your "enemies" (who would have thought??) ie they want to harm you, you want to harm them and you both understand the possible consequences.

ofc u could take a radical pacifist stance and claim that "all violence is bad" or that "all killing is murder" etc. and leave it at that. but imo thats ignoring the psychological/cultural nuances of it.

war shooters portraying war in a false light is an issue too but isnt directly related to the general question of violence
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 07:09:25 AM by C.A. Sinner » Logged
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« Reply #455 on: September 02, 2013, 01:55:57 PM »

thought process behind "rape vs murder why is rape worse" people
1) i dont understand what rape is, it's just pixel people having sex, ur not a prude r u??
2) you only care cos rape vs women u dont care that pixel men die except people do, durp
3) so what if its offensive to a large amount of people theyre not palying da video gam???
i'd say end the thread it's got to the point of new people hit & running the same thing
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« Reply #456 on: September 02, 2013, 06:19:24 PM »

i guess that's true, but i barely ever play those. still, even in a military situation, when both sides believe they are right and have families at home and so on, it's never called murder when a soldier kills a soldier, or even when a soldier accidentally kills a civilian, it's only murder if a soldier intentionally kills a civilian. there's still a big difference between killing a guy capable of and intent on killing you (someone else armed with a gun), regardless of whether he's moral and good or not, and killing a guy who couldn't fight back (like an old man in a wheelchair or something)

a point i brought up earlier in this thread seems to apply here. people often think of child molesters as worse than murderers in prison. that's not because the crime itself is somehow "worse", the destruction is worse when you kill someone. the reason people think child molesters are worse is because they prey on the most helpless and least powerful. rape is somewhere in between murder and child molestation in terms of the powerlessness scale

it's really more about shame than sheer destructiveness. it's more shameful to molest a child than to kill 1000 soldiers in battle, even though you are causing "more" sheer destruction in the latter

You have a strange way of seeing things.

Murder is worse than rape, and laws worldwide reflect that notion (you'll be more severely punished if you kill someone, and rightfully so). Even if you might find one crime more disgusting than the other from a subjective perspective.

I just find it hypocritical that wanton violence is readily accepted as entertainment but sexual violence is some kind of off limits sacred thing. Both things are monstrous. We are monstrous as human beings, i mean, we find these games where we kill people or other living creatures, fun. Our brains are hardwired to detach ourselves from the fact that we find a game simulating something as terrible as war, amusing and enjoyable.

Of course in a real life situation where we are threatened with death ourselves we might not be as gleeful, but take a look at people who hunt, how they readily enjoy hunting "game" (funny word uh, it actually derives from an ancient goth word meaning "joy", the joy of hunting and killing an animal). Its an ancestral thing, good for survival, being a bloodthirsty predator who feels no compassion for prey (or for the members of the competing tribe). And a lot of games cater to that circuitry in our brains.  Evil Im going off on an evolutionary psychology tangent here.

Is it moral to create a game where you kill things? Shouldn't it also be taboo?

My point is if this was an uproar about an implied rape scene in a Kirby game, i would understand. But Hotline Miami is a pretty depraved thing as it stands. If there was an endangered-species-wildlife-reserve-arsony-minigame, or a puppy-kicking quicktime event it wouldn't make it any more kid friendly.

Im not saying rape in a game is ok (anyone remember Rapelay), im just saying killing is much more reprehensible (anyone remember the original Postal game?).
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 06:30:29 PM by Nektonico » Logged

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« Reply #457 on: September 02, 2013, 06:45:15 PM »

Killing is more destructive to society than rape. Rape however cannot be as appropriately justified as killing can, and thus is viewed more negatively than killing. I think the thing Paul's getting at is that in most of the situations that killing is portrayed in the media, it's usually justified in the context of a war or any other situation where those doing violence are either reacting or preemptively acting against a genuine threat.

Rape is basically impossible to justify, so if depicted favorably it's oftentimes way more disgusting than, for example, violence and jingoism in Call of Duty, coupled with the desensitization of violence in the media as it is.

Course if you made a mass murder simulator that unironically and actively depicts killing dudes without reason as a positive action, it'd definitely feel pretty bad, but probably less than a game glorifying rape in the same way just because we see more physical violence than sexual violence in media.

If Hotline Miami were about just killing children and old people, people generally feel less okay about it.
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« Reply #458 on: September 02, 2013, 09:00:43 PM »

Let's also be clear: in HLM1, you kill gangsters. People who are also actively trying to kill you. This is generally the case in all games involving murder of some kind.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #459 on: September 02, 2013, 09:12:27 PM »

@Nektonico - as the others said, you are still conflating killing and murder. they aren't the same thing at all. in most games you do kill, but in almost no game do you murder.
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