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[Uhfgood]

I'm building a choose your own adventure around pong.  Right now working on art, but i'm starting to think of my next project.  I'm trying to figure out what are some ways I could make the game awesome, aside from the obvious "Make a good story" and "Make great art".  It will still be a choose-your-own-adventure style game, and the only thing different will be I will have built in text overlay in the engine, so I won't need to work on making images of the actual text.  Also I'm going to focus less on text and more on the images themselves.

That being said, it's still just a choose-your-own-adventure -- So what could be some ways to make it awesome enough for people to want to pay money for?

[DanDecarlo]

Some random world/level generators and control over the environment, character customization, probably unlocking more things while progressing in the game. I don't know if this helps, but I find these things cool.

[eyeliner]

Ambient sounds, ambient music, decent/good images and a stellar story, with a bit of interaction from the player?

[HyMyNameIsMatt]

We've all played Minecraft right?  When you don't know what you're doing in that game it's got a very choose your own adventure feel right in it's mechanics.  Do I go in this cave or do I stay here and try to collect more resources?

I think a key here would be letting the player feel like they have some freedom even when they have just a few options really available to them.  You can probably do this by giving them some aesthetic choices and ones that don't effect the game in substantial ways.  Like picking to wear a hat instead of a bandanna or something.

[Muz]

I'm not really a fan of CYOA games. They're rather outdated these days and I prefer the more management style interactive fiction games like Long Live The Queen.

Worse than anything, CYOA doesn't give the player a sense of agency - making them feel that their actions, skill, and strategies make a difference. That's why games like D&D and adventure evolved from it, even though those games introduce their own set of problems.

CYOA game design is almost 100% level design.

Try to move away from the "story tree" model. Move towards a lock and key design, much like adventure games. Unlike adventure games, where people are always picking up every damn "key" they come across, you don't need inventory with CYOA. If the lead character wants to make a certain friend, they need to make a mutual enemy which is done by following another path first, etc.

You should probably model your story down on paper like levels... what leads to where, which 'key' unlocks which 'lock.

[moi]

CYOA games can be very good if done well.
The most important thing is to give an impression of freedom by not making too many fatal branches, let the player progress by chapters to prevent loops, good graphics to stimulate the imagination but leave some to the imagination, etc...
For an example of a CYOA game done well look at "journey" from Infocom

[pelle]

Worse than anything, CYOA doesn't give the player a sense of agency - making them feel that their actions, skill, and strategies make a difference. That's why games like D&D and adventure evolved from it, even though those games introduce their own set of problems.

D&D predates the CYOA books, and in particular it predates the Fighting Fantasy books that is probably what most think about when they think CYOA (because the actual CYOA are extremely bad to be honest; not that FF are the highest form of literature written). Gamebooks (much better word than calling them CYOA) became popular in the 1980's because RPG players found a way to enjoy some adventuring alone when not with their game group, but predictably almost everyone moved on to play CRPGs instead.

CYOA game design is almost 100% level design.

That is true for some gamebooks (like the original CYOA series) but some gamebooks have much more involved game systems than that, a few (Blood Sword series) even include tactical maps with simple enemy AI rules for playing out each battle.

Everyone interested in CYOA/gamebooks has to check out the Fabled Lands series from the mid-late-1990's (reprinted since 2010). Blew my mind when I started playing/reading. Also exists as some free desktop application, and I think there is an iOS app. It's like a CRPG on paper. Everyone who thinks gamebooks have to be linear stories are in for a surprise. You can travel between the books, go on side-quests in any order, there is no end at all. There are other interesting 1990's gamebooks with clever mechanics that makes the old (and much more well known) books form the 1970's and 1980's look extremely primitive, so anyone who sets out to make anything CYOA-like should definitely do some research into more modern systems (eg look at the Windhammer Prize entries) instead of assume everything is what it was like in the bad old days.

(And google my gamebookformat script that can be used to generate gamebooks in lots of formats, including playable HTML+JavaScript that could be turned into complete apps if you want to. I'm too lazy to link.)

[pelle]

... also everyone has to buy the Fabled Land reprinted books because the original authors are talking about kickstarting the creation of books 7-12. The original series was cancelled after 6 books, but the world was supposed to have 12, and there are links from the existing books to books 7-12, so I really hope they can find enough new players/readers (and money) to make it worthwhile to try to run that on kickstarter.

It is promising that the kickstarter for the reprinted deluxe versions of Way of The Tiger was so successful:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1615043334/the-way-of-the-tiger-gamebooks-new-collectors-edit

And of course the Holdfast gamebook/app (I think that already has a thread somewhere around here?):
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/blackchickenstudios/holdfast-a-gamebook-of-dwarven-vengeance

If those (and a few other less well-known) gamebooks can get funding it would be sad if Fabled Lands would fail. Also it is good to see gamebooks doing so well now (in print and as apps) for anyone else interested in doing that (like OP?).

[Uhfgood]

I'll check out those titles you guys told me about, but maybe a bit more background is in order.  I'll try to be brief as possible.  I've been interested in "graphic adventures" ever since I've been on a computer.  I've tried a few times to create an adventure with existing systems but haven't been able to get my head around imagining locations and such.

So I decided to go back to basics.  The most basic form of adventure is CYOA.  I did an LD where I basically hard coded all the pages.  Then I built a small framework in haxe/openfl.  It's really small, all it does it allow scenes to be created in a json file, and allow you to click images to get to other scenes, that's why I said I don't even have proper text overlay.

With that out of the way, the only thing I can do with the framework at this point is just that, images that lead to other scenes, and text (which will be de-emphasized this next time).  Eventually I will be making full-fledged point-n-clicks.  But in order to help teach myself adventure game design and other things such as art and music, I need to build up.

Also these restrictions will help me be a bit more creative.  If I can do it with my existing framework I will.  No variables or anything.  In any case thanks for your help I'll check those things you told me about to help.

[pelle]

Only images that lead to new images sound like it requires a lot of work to make interesting to play, sort of like the original CYOA. Adding some kind of memory/state to allow the game to remember previous decisions will make much more complex stories possible without having a huge branching tree. Doesn't have to be complicated or shown to the player. At least something simple as taking different branches depending on if the player has already visited a specific previous image or not.

[Uhfgood]

The goal is to just enhance one thing about the framework and make a game based on it.  Variables/states are planned in future versions, but I need to not spend so much time developing the framework, and more time finishing games :-)

[Muz]

Actually, I've found some good CYOA games lately on Android and putting some time in them. Considered making one myself, since it needs less production work than anything else.

The one thing I hate most about them are the pointless choices. You know, your usual "go left or go right" choices. Completely useless. They're just fillers, like random encounters in JRPGs.

And then there's the all paths lead to the same ending.
Choice A: Kill the bad guy. He dies. Go to 281.
Choice B: Run away. The bad guy chases you and you end up trapped in a room with him where you lose 2 HP and kill him anyway. Go to 281.
Choice C: Spare his life. He tries to kill you and you lose 2 HP in the surprise attack. Go to 281.

That's pretty shitty design. You should probably have a bunch of game states to make it easier to design, but these superficial endings are annoying.

What I do like are the games that have a slight element of randomness to them. If you attack the bad guy, you shouldn't be able to win every time. That makes the game predictable and short. Sometimes a risky move gets you killed. Sometimes the risk pays off.

And IMO, there shouldn't be a reliance on resources. You shouldn't expect to play lock and key. There should be at least one path that's possible with nearly no HP or items. HP can still be used, but in the sense that there's only so many combats you can go through.

[pelle]

The one thing I hate most about them are the pointless choices. You know, your usual "go left or go right" choices. Completely useless. They're just fillers, like random encounters in JRPGs.

I think they are different in that the pointless choices in a gamebook allows you to go back and get some extra replay out of the game. Of course choices that matter are more interesting, but starting the game with a seemingly random left-right-choice often seems like just a way to make you want to replay to try the other path.

And then there's the all paths lead to the same ending.
Choice A: Kill the bad guy. He dies. Go to 281.
Choice B: Run away. The bad guy chases you and you end up trapped in a room with him where you lose 2 HP and kill him anyway. Go to 281.
Choice C: Spare his life. He tries to kill you and you lose 2 HP in the surprise attack. Go to 281.

This is where some kind of state (like codewords) help. Remember what the player choose and have that matter at some later point. Somehow hint to the player that it did matter as well.

What I do like are the games that have a slight element of randomness to them. If you attack the bad guy, you shouldn't be able to win every time. That makes the game predictable and short. Sometimes a risky move gets you killed. Sometimes the risk pays off.

I'm leaning towards gamebooks without combat, and with very little or no randomness. It is not that entertaining to replay/reread over and over again just waiting for the right die-rolls.

And IMO, there shouldn't be a reliance on resources. You shouldn't expect to play lock and key. There should be at least one path that's possible with nearly no HP or items. HP can still be used, but in the sense that there's only so many combats you can go through.

I think lock and key is one of the few possible interactions with the gameworld you can have in a gamebook, so better make the best of that. Other than inventory management there isn't anything but just picking choices.