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Muz
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« on: March 05, 2014, 09:51:09 AM »

Games are often in first or second person. They're rarely ever third person even if the camera angle is that way, except in something like Bastion. I'd define something like Fallout as first person storytelling, because you choose your character's actions and someone else doesn't say what they're doing. In Bastion, someone else narrates what you are doing or have done, so the storytelling is close to third person.

It's hard to inject a personality into something that the player controls fully. Let's say I have a hotheaded protagonist who gets into trouble because of his emotions. If given a choice, the player probably won't do it at all. If not given a choice, forcing the story from a character flaw is kinda lame - it goes against the classic D&D style RPGs where the DM can't decide the player's actions.

Anyone know any good examples of this kind of writing? So far I think Betrayal at Krondor does well in this regard, because you still get the first person narration, but it's based on response to what you do, without feeling like you're forced to do something. The storytelling characters also encourage you to do one thing or another based on their thoughts but the game responses if you do otherwise.
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Runefrog
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« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2014, 03:08:37 AM »

I think you're using player perspective in a completely different way than usual.
First person would normally refer to the player being inside the character's body whereas third person would be the player playing from over the shoulder of the character.

What I think you're saying is third person is when the player has no personality input whereas first person gives the player full control via options.

The thing with most games is no matter what option you choose both dialogue trees end up at the same point. It's a linear story with the illusion of choice. However, games are becoming much more complex with multiple endings, and it must be a huge pain in the ass to write all that content and not mess it all up with one dodgy plot point.

I watched a really good video on Youtube but I can't remember what it was called, but it was a decent breakdown of the different types of narrative decision-making in games.

I think one option was giving the player a choice, but both outcomes lead to the same consequence. Then another option was giving the player a choice, and the different outcomes changed the difficulty of the game or how quickly it could be completed.

Look at The Witcher 3 though. That's supposed to have multiple endings. But my problem with this approach is you're not playing one game, you're playing multiple games in one. That's not a problem if you want to experience each narrative string, but it could be annoying when discussing with friends and you're accidentally tripping over each other with spoilers.
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locknic
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« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2014, 05:26:06 PM »

I think you're using player perspective in a completely different way than usual.
First person would normally refer to the player being inside the character's body whereas third person would be the player playing from over the shoulder of the character.

Actually, I think he is talking about the narrative style not the camera angle.

Anyone know any good examples of this kind of writing?

This might be a bit of an extreme case, but I think The Stanley Parable is a perfect example of what you are talking about.
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Runefrog
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« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2014, 03:21:23 AM »

Yeah I know, I just felt it was worth highlighting so people don't get confused, hence why my next line was, "What I think you're saying is third person is when the player has no personality input whereas first person gives the player full control via options."
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Gorgoo
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« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2014, 09:42:10 AM »

There are actually some tabletop RPGs, like D&D but with other systems, that incentivize players to play up their characters' flaws. In Fate Core, for example, you write down your character's defining "aspects", and gain fate points whenever you let those aspects cause problems for your character. You can then spend fate points for bonuses, when your aspects are helpful.

Obviously, a system that flexible would be hard for video games, but you could definitely adapt the spirit of it. With your example of a hotheaded protagonist, you might have a mechanic which tracks, I don't know, "Emotional Tension" or something. You could boost the character's tension by deliberately putting them in situations where their emotions get the better of them, and higher tension makes them better in combat or something. Maybe, if you have dialogue choices, certain options get cut off if your tension is too high at the time; your character just isn't calm enough to act that way.

That said, I'm not sure if I can think of any game which uses that system. The closest I can think of, though, is Metal Gear Solid 4, where your "psyche" meter affects your accuracy and recovery speed, and it drops in firefights but recovers in relaxing situations. In that case, though, it's basically the same as the "stamina" meter from previous games in the series, so I'm not sure if that's what you want.
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Alder
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« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2014, 04:19:02 PM »

I just mentioned this in another thread, but I can't think of a single time in a game that a player character has consistently been their own person and it's been warmly received by audiences. If a character doesn't have the same compulsion to proceed forward that your player ideally should, however sociopathic that might make them, they're getting in the way of The Funtm and will be called "whiny" or "emo" or all the other things Raiden got called back before MGS2 started being re-evaluated as an ahead-of-our-time-let-alone-its-own game-changer. Whatever else is going on, a main character is as much as anything else an avatar for the player, and while a well-made game can potentially make the player feel the same way as how the character should be feeling, you can't let characterisation or depth get in the way of the player's ability to progress.
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valrus
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« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2014, 11:26:51 AM »

Obviously, a system that flexible would be hard for video games, but you could definitely adapt the spirit of it. With your example of a hotheaded protagonist, you might have a mechanic which tracks, I don't know, "Emotional Tension" or something. You could boost the character's tension by deliberately putting them in situations where their emotions get the better of them, and higher tension makes them better in combat or something. Maybe, if you have dialogue choices, certain options get cut off if your tension is too high at the time; your character just isn't calm enough to act that way.

I was thinking of something similar, at one point, for a game mechanically a bit similar to Crusader Kings II, and thought spendable "willpower" would be nice.  It always takes a bit of willpower to turn down a bribe or a drink or a sexual advance, but for greedy or intemperate or lustful characters those might take a lot of willpower.  You could turn down the bribe, but you may find yourself without necessary willpower later.  If you tend to have a hard schedule full of hard decisions, you may find your character having a drink every night and not able to stop it.  You could even *develop* flaws that way.

Anyway, I thought it'd be a neat way to capture human flaws without taking away player agency.
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PeteHuf
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« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2014, 02:48:11 PM »

A related idea I've been kicking around is to take advantage of game players' natural instincts and decision-making and working that into part of the character being played. This avoids ludo-narrative dissonance. It isn't the greatest game, but Postal 2 definitely does this. (It knows FPS players love to kill everything and don't treat NPCs as real people, so it makes the character a sociopath.) I could see an interesting game about a hoarder, since players always seem to love hoarding everything.

It is obviously easier to make some characters than others in this way, since the character is is really being defined by the expected player's actions.

Spec Ops: The Line's important part follows this principle I would say.
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« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2014, 10:11:35 AM »

For games that include any amount of player customization or choice, this is a tricky area. Mass Effect 3 drew criticism because (among other things) some fans felt that Shepard was forced into having emotional responses that the player didn't think were appropriate.

I think explicit flaws, specifically, are probably best left out if the player is supposed to determine the character's personality otherwise. If it's a totally fixed protagonist and story (like, say, The Last of Us) then I'm fine with going ahead with the story that's being told.
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dystonym
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« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2014, 09:21:17 AM »

I feel like this is more of a mechanical problem than a writing problem. When the player is put in direct control of a character, it's instinctive to want to be in control of every aspect of that character. If a game were to adopt a more indirect control scheme (something like Majesty 2, where you are sort of just an abstract thing and characters are just responding to your orders) with a single, well realised character, that character could be much more flawed and dynamic because there isn't that direct connection.
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