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[ThemsAllTook]

...is now available on Steam and PS4! Bought but haven't played yet: http://store.steampowered.com/app/251470/

Great response to people around the internet complaining that it doesn't have online multiplayer: http://www.polygon.com/2014/3/11/5491146/why-you-dont-want-an-online-mode-towerfall

Congrats Matt and team!

[Tazi]

Great response to people around the internet complaining that it doesn't have online multiplayer: http://www.polygon.com/2014/3/11/5491146/why-you-dont-want-an-online-mode-towerfall

Sorry, but this article is so wrong, but on a level that it even got me upset.  
I can understand that someone feels that the development of an online multiplayer is too much of a challenge, and decides to drop it, but stating that how much of a big deal is lag in a 2D platformer, and that it can't be done... that's just shameless nonsense. Samurai Gunn doesn't have multiplayer for one reason only: the developer wasn't able to figure out how to work around the limitations of Game Maker, and neither did outsourced it to someone who knows how to. (or maybe it doesn't worth the effort/money according to his judgement) I'm guessing something similar's up with TowerFall, tho I think it wasn't Game Maker. And actually, there's nothing wrong with that, until there are fake explanations like "lag would destroy gameplay", and "we did not implemented it, but it's more fun locally, anyway".

Both Street Fighter 4 and Super Smash Bros. Brawl were designed to play significantly slower than the previous games in their respective series, which served to make lag less noticeable when playing online.

Except Steet Figher 4 is not slower then the previous SF4 entries. I wonder if the article's writer even played them.

[Dragonmaw]

Street Fighter 4 is indeed slower than previous Capcom fighters that had online lag issues.

Also, while it can technically be done, it's not ideal. For example, Nidhogg included online multiplayer, and while it's playable if you are playing with someone in the same region as you, it quickly desyncs and has issues anywhere else. Trades where you win quickly become trades where you lose.

So yes. It really does destroy the gameplay. Nidhogg is evidence of that.

[Tazi]

About Nidhogg: Yes, but it's not because it can't be done, or because they did everything right...
2D fighters are the prime examples for how a complex 2D game can work online.


I might be wrong about Street Fighter IV, but III: TS felt a lot slower then that. SFII and Alpha, dunno... Maybe they were faster? But they worked perfectly online with GGPO or 2dfighters.com (rip), and the only thing SFIV have over them is the fancy 3D graphics which one is handled locally I think. So even if SFIV is slower, I don't think multiplayer was the main reason, or if it was it should not be, unless I see/read the creators stating otherwise.

[Netsu]

With 'ping in the teens' even a game like samurai gunn would play well. But it's a question of wether it's worth the effort if playing over the internet would probably be too much.
I never played any fighter online, but if it takes less then your ping to block or dodge an attack than I don't see how you can compensate for that.

[InfiniteStateMachine]

Street Fighter 4 is indeed slower than previous Capcom fighters that had online lag issues.

Also, while it can technically be done, it's not ideal. For example, Nidhogg included online multiplayer, and while it's playable if you are playing with someone in the same region as you, it quickly desyncs and has issues anywhere else. Trades where you win quickly become trades where you lose.

So yes. It really does destroy the gameplay. Nidhogg is evidence of that.

Isn't that just evidence that Nidhogg had a poor online implementation? I sincerely doubt Nidhodd's implementation is the benchmark for whether or not a twitch game is playable online.

Street Fighter 4 isn't that much slower and there's games out there that are faster with even better net performance (Skullgirls). Also I haven't played it but people have said good things about the GGPO re-releases of older Capcom titles.

[ThemsAllTook]

There's one aspect of the online multiplayer debate that I find particularly interesting: As a game designer, should you enable modes of play that you know (or at least think) will be suboptimal, and just let players judge for themselves whether they're satisfied by it? I'm OK with saying no to this, but not everyone is, and I can see the other side of the argument too.

Setting aside technical limitations for a moment, in the specific case of TowerFall, it's really a facilitator for bonding between friends more than it is just a video game. You don't get the same level of interaction and physicality if the other players aren't right next to you. By leaving out the option of playing with people online, you may end up getting together in person more often and forming stronger bonds that way. The obvious counterpoint is that you might end up just playing less with each other overall if you can't do it online, but it's an interesting thing to think about.

[InfiniteStateMachine]

Setting aside technical limitations for a moment, in the specific case of TowerFall, it's really a facilitator for bonding between friends more than it is just a video game. You don't get the same level of interaction and physicality if the other players aren't right next to you. By leaving out the option of playing with people online, you may end up getting together in person more often and forming stronger bonds that way.

That's a far more reasonable explanation and one I would have much more respect for.


EDIT: I just read the article, many of the games he's mentioned have been cited as examples of bad netcode in their respective genres.

[Tazi]

You don't get the same level of interaction and physicality if the other players aren't right next to you.

Then why no LAN play? Even if I would get 3 friends here to play the game together, we would still have problem with not having enough controllers, and some of us not having a proper view of the average size non-IPS monitor.

Don't get me wrong I've got your point, it's a nice idea, but the things is, most people work all day where I live, and only having a few free hours every day. Getting from somewhere to somewhere in this city takes at least an hour, thanks to this local multiplayer is just an option for rare occassions. Online is the only way to solve this, for many of us. On the other hand, it's so sad that people don't even have time anymore, to spend a few hours in each others company.  

[ANtY]

the only option I see for playing this game with other ppl is if some of my co-workers would agree to stay after work to play

maybe it'll happen, would be cool

[Alevice]

None of my RL friends have sufficient interest to play these type of games with me locally. Most of my gaming buddies are over the internet. I understand the reasoning, but remains a shame.

[brettchalupa]

the only option I see for playing this game with other ppl is if some of my co-workers would agree to stay after work to play

maybe it'll happen, would be cool

bribe them with pizza

I hope there is a mac or linux release in the near future.

[ThemsAllTook]

I hope there is a mac or linux release in the near future.

Matt was on a livestream with Joystiq yesterday, and mentioned that he really wants to do a Mac version, and probably one for Linux too. A lot of the people I've tried to convince to play it are on Macs, so that'll be great to see happen.

[brettchalupa]

Glad to hear it! I could just see me schlepping around my laptop and some controllers to play wherever. 

[DocProctopus]

I've played an awful lot of Towerfall since I got it on the Ouya last year and I'm pretty satisfied with the explanation that it's too twitchy to be played with any sort of lag. Once you've played more than a handful of rounds, it really starts to rely on fraction-of-a-second reactions; dodging in particular relies on timing that could easily be destroyed by a quarter of a second of lag. I'm in the Steam Home Streaming beta, and all of the connections between the computers are physical - wifi is not involved at any point. Towerfall is not playable due to the lag; I have to bring in my laptop and hook it up to the TV. Maybe I would believe that it could work over the internet if everyone involved had a fiber connection.

If I were Matt Thorson I probably wouldn't have put in netplay, either. Better to serve a smaller market very well than to have unavoidable lag problems mar the reception of what really is one of the best local multiplayer games ever made.

[ThemsAllTook]

So, I wasn't all that sure about quest mode at first, but after playing with it for a while it's really grown on me. Multiplayer is still of course the best way to play, but single player quest mode is no slouch.

The IGF pavilion at GDC was an awesome place to play. First time I've held a PS4 controller, and finally I see what all the fuss is about; it really felt great in my hands. Anyone know if PS4 controllers will work with the PC version, or will I have to buy the console if I want to use them?

[Uykered]

Towerfall was working fine with some of my generic USB controllers (buffalo SNES, wii gamepads) so it should work with PS4 controllers if they work with windows. (I don't know if you can change the controls on the controller so some of the moves may have been missing on my non-xbox controllers I can't remember, my triggers were activating the game's menu rather than the usual start button for instance.)

[Matt Thorson]

PS4 controllers work on the PC build out of the box.

Gamepads need to be configured or they'll fall back to the default button mappings (XB360). I tried to include configs for the major controllers like PS4 and iBuffalo, and I'll be adding player-made configs as they pop up.

If you want to configure a gamepad, look in the game's install directory ./Gamepad_Config for details. And check out the input_log and input_test dev console commands for help (enable the dev console on the options menu).

[ThemsAllTook]

Perfect, thanks!

I'm up to four gold skulls in quest mode. Haven't managed to beat King's Court yet. I've been playing everything on hardcore mode only...not sure if I need to play on normal too to get full credit for everything? I guess I can try it once I'm done with hardcore.

[Nitishajack]

Might have checked this out if it was on the PS3 or 360 XBLa