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[gimymblert]

He was more known than mario and mickey at some point for sure (in america),

mickey as in mickey mouse? i find that very very very very very very very very hard to believe

TILBERT's fanboy is showing ..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_the_Hedgehog_(character)

In 1992, Sonic was found to be more recognizable than Mickey Mouse in the six to eleven year old demographic.

http://www.1up.com/features/essential-50-sonic

Fun fact it was created as an hommage to mickey, with the shoes of mickeal jackson (who did music for the 3rd game), had cg inspired design because it was hype, blue because mario was red and it was sega's color (nintendo was red because it was the color of yamauchi's favorite scarf) ... it's a design as much as rational as mario

[Udderdude]

Ok, I guess for one brief shining moment, at the height of his popularity, he was more popular.  Never again, though. D:

Also your link is busted.

[Graham-]

From wikipedia: "Then in late 2008, MSN held a poll of who's the most iconic video game character, Sonic was ranked #1 as the most iconic video game character of all in gaming while Mario and Lara Croft were voted less in second and in third respectively"

6-11 is kids though. But still cool.

[gimymblert]

Let's take this thread to his conlusion ... let's try to create an iconic character

first step analysis:

WHAT'S THE CONTEXT NOW, what tension and overall feeling need to be resolve in the world at large. What's cool now, what are the trend in the world, what are the expectation, what is nostalgic. What are universal concern these contexts rejoin, what does it tell us about the human condition. Note there isn't a single concern but layer of oncern that mesh together.

It's important to note that this is isn't deep philosophies stuff. Silly concern are still concern, as long it's an understanding of an era. Think 1980 or 1960 and how we reduce them now, how would you reduce current contexts?

Article link will be cool.

[Graham-]

What's the meaning of life? As soon as we figure that out we're golden.

[Graham-]

1. Make games mainstream.
2. Make them for adults.
3. Make them deeper.

[baconman]

We must go deeper!

[Graham-]

Then go.

[baconman]

Synergy and symbology?

[Graham-]

It makes me realize how nuts it is for players to outfit their own characters. It is hard to have taste.

On the other hand personalization is rad. Maybe the next big character is a do-it-yourself type, kind of like Sackboy.

edit: this is in response to that link

[Graham-]

Tilbert, you can follow through here and I'll riff with you. I assumed you were going to post something.

If we have a concrete example to work through everyone else can pile on. People find it easier to discuss abstractions surrounding an actual idea, and Mario has already been talked about.

I would like to see a hero on the field in a strategy game. Sacrifice did this. But I want that hero to be expressive, so I control him like I was playing an action game, but the challenges I overcome are related to strategic execution.

This one gives us a hero that demonstrates the "intelligent, hardcore" side of games, something I think we want.

[baconman]

Character dress-up... I mean 'customization' ...does appear to be a very valid, defining sign of the times now. Especially where online gaming is concerned, it's understandable for players to want to distinctify themselves. Gaming itself almost appears to be evolving out of 'character-oriented' story and into 'avatar-oriented' story. You're not controlling the hero, you're *being* the hero.

That said... I'm also seeing this topic (to some degree) moving away from 'character design' to 'style design.' How do you make sure your game has the right pieces to put together to fit it's players' range of personalities, and still fit within the context of the game's setting?

[Graham-]

Play-testing.

Also, dress-ups are often too verbose. I have like 42 different hats in LBP. That's too complicated. Give me a couple solid options that have clear styles to each one, and let me build on those.

[gimymblert]

I would like to see a hero on the field in a strategy game. Sacrifice did this. But I want that hero to be expressive, so I control him like I was playing an action game, but the challenges I overcome are related to strategic execution.

You cannot guarantee something became iconic on teh level of mario. It's must a symbol, it must work as a slogan and a logo, and within the right context.

Now in a given context there is two major iconic way of doing it. The distillation or the subversion.
Mario is a distillation of video games and platformer that came before him.
Sonic was a subversion of mario clone (still a distillation of its own concept), it subvert platformer by subverting the aesthetics and adding foreign element (speed) in a totally integrated way.

Distillation mean that you takes the tropes and run with them to a pure evident stylization. It's about removing the noise and amplifying the element that define the given context. Rob Leifield's style as popular just because of that, it took the ridicule of comics and make it into a style, from an artistic perspective it was also a subversion of art rules but that is only within people who appreciate art. But notice how much in both camp it was still memorable to this days, in one as an example of coolness and in the other as an example of anything wrong with comics ... it's iconic! It mean something, it's a symbole!

The main problem is to not be mediocre and to be genuine, it has nothing to do with good or bad. Meme are another great iconic example, not all meme are equal, the whole meme format is more iconic that the sub meme that are part of it, troll faces, smiley, reaction gifs, etc ... all tap into the same mechanism of iconicity, ie an elegant "spot onness".

Now come back to your concept, what's make it above all the existing things that does the same? What is example of distillation in that genre (battlezone, sacrifice, giant kabuto, c&c generals, steel battalion, pikmin, etc ...), how will you purify or subvert it? Will execution of the concept actually help? How will your audience receive it or react to the concept, what are the jokes, complaints, dreams, and expectation of that group? How does it fit in the current gaming culture narrative?

[Graham-]

No shit. I was expecting you to roll him into icon-form.

Just a starting point.

---

Let's take a look at Shepherd from Mass Effect. I mean there are two problems here. We have the need to create a character that is relevant to begin with. That's the same need we have when making movies. And then we have the need to adjust that character to suit games.

So here is Mario:
 - is platformers/games for a generation, at a particular time
 - expresses his personality well through play

I think meatboy does the first one, for its market, but not the second one as well.

We want Shepherd to be iconic, but he's vanilla precisely so the player can project onto him. And the mechanics don't really re-enforce his personality that well.

One of the most iconic characters today may be the Skyrim avatar, or just Master Chief. The Skyrim avatar is too generic, and Master Chief is an action figure.

[SirNiko]

Remember that Sonic the Hedgehog was the result of an incredible amount of market research done by Sega specifically to try to beat out Mario by replacing Alex Kidd. Creating another character like Sonic would be a difficult feat, but Sega put a lot of effort into his development and that's a good thing to try to emulate.

Sometimes it's more than just luck. Market research can be (and often is) a beneficial thing. It's not a substitute for making a fun-to-play game, but nobody should be ashamed of asking what the player wants and then trying to provide it. Doubly so if you use it as an opportunity to target a niche or underserved market (eg, recent trends asking for more non-sexualized female protagonists).

In response to earlier suggestions about avoiding trendy outfits, you can get away with it if your character is flexible enough to change his outfit and style to reflect changing trends. Lara Croft, for example, remains a popular and recognizable character even though she lacks a single trademark outfit.

[Graham-]

There's one thing about Sonic I want to throw in there. I saw a history of the Sonic franchise on youtube. Part of the reason he moves fast is to beat save game limitations on old hardware. If Sonic moved fast then he could beat the early levels fast for experienced players. There was a reason for his speed.

[gimymblert]

Well sonic isn't just market research, if you ask kids, i'm sure they won't tell you all they need is blue hedgehog that run fast and pick ring ... just that phrase was pure nonsense.

Also there is an idea that iconic character must be clever, well not too clever not too sophisticate more precisely, master chief and dohvakin are still distinct in a distinct world. The best way to see how your character stand in a crowd is precisely to make a sheet with that crowd, a trend board.

Real trend board






Basically trying to capture a global mood at moment in a population, the corollary is the mood board which you do the same but t convey the goal for your product









ironic trend board




GUESS WHO SET THAT TREND!!!!


Beard is the new trend


Spot a pattern and subvert it meaningfully to catch imagination, understanding the audience is key. LUCK is a huge factor too. Lara was a subversion and she have definite iconic outfit, the boxer short and green top with the long tail hair.

[Sir Raptor]

Okay, that last picture down there is intentionally misleading. 2000's was the decade when Tak, Sackboy, Sly Cooper and Ratchet and Clank were introduced. You can't act like only middle-aged white people were mascots during that time.

[Graham-]

Good post Tilbs.