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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperDesignHelp me to simplify!!
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baconman
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« on: March 27, 2014, 08:26:46 AM »

 Facepalm Okay. So I started off with a nice, grandiose project that every part of my designer mindset still wants to create (and anything less ties right back into the systematic thinking involved in it). Meanwhile, I'm hitting coding walls left and right because it's clearly something that's still above me.

So, what I have:

25 unsprited character designs meant to fit a grip of niches. They're amalgamations between SF/KoF fighting styles and personalities, MegaMan robot masters (and weaponry thereof), popular tropes like pirate/ninja/furry/etc., and popular game protagonists. You could maybe even tie superhero comparisons to them rather easily. 5 of them are, at this point, considered 'unplayable boss characters,' meant to fill the roles of major recurring antagonists. They're male/female balanced (yes, even the bosses) and can naturally, through these themes, have inherent friction between them.

Somewhere in the sands of time, I also have a scheme where they can all be adequately animated in 80 frames apiece to cover just about every kind of gaming out there... maybe 84 if going for four-directional attack animations. Once I dig that out of my paperwork, I could at least mash together a Pivot StickFigure output of that.

Digital art, much as I love and admire it... is just not my jam! WTF

15 settings, mostly based off of Sonic the Hedgehog and MegaMan level design; some more fleshed out than others. The itch I'm having is originality, which is tough to do while staying true to how they play. At it's lowest common denominator, I'm trying to associate these zones with colors, and some are fitting less naturally than others.

Critter-type enemies, I'm totally going with MegaMan here (along with some DKC), based on simple functionality. Again though, struggling with originality in this department, combined with not being real good at digital art; and not just wanting to make 'a MegaMan game.' Also toying with the idea of 3-stage evolved versions, to cover PokeMon-style gameplay and miniboss bases (or should I just color-change and scale them?); but that's another of those... probably unnecessary things.

Weapon system, unillustrated so far, between swords, axe/hammers, spear/staffs, and whips; each with utility usage beyond mere combat. Firearms are just Castlevania subweapons (Rogue Legacy caught that perfectly!); and explosives like bombs, missles, and grenades, but in some odd way where they can all be tied to the same type of ammo.

The weapons (and armors? ...but I'm not about to graphically overfork myself illustrating all of THAT, per character, per frame!) were also going to do the whole material/color upgrade crap, mostly in regards to Terraria-feeling progression - but in retrospect that also seems very extraneous. A sword is a sword, no matter how it looks, right? All that would change is a little math, which does nothing if something is balanced properly already.

Lucky charms of the game are Hearts, Stars, Keys, Bombs, Food (refills timers?), and Gold/Jewels/Cash. Was toying with the idea of potions (and different kinds of food) having shuffled effects on the player, like Rogue's potions or Isaac's pills.

There's a variety of shot types too (triple burst shots, angled triple-shots, cardinal/diagonal/combo spread shots, that sort of thing); but I'll level with you - they're mostly just there for the sake of enemy design.

A spell system, based on colors, where lighter colors have positive effects and darker ones have negative effects, neutral ones do 1/3 of both. Reds would be health-focused - so light reds (like pinks?) would heal, dark reds would do damage, and medium reds would effectively be life drains/vampirism; if that makes sense. Blues would buff/drain/reduce 'levels' (another 'is it necessary' thing), and greens would affect status conditions. This combines with geometric ranges like lines, radials, rapid-attacks, or the 'all of one side' ala FFVI; which each mathmatically adjust the result.

<i>But for one, would I even use this outside of RPG context? Could it work in, say, a fighting or racing game? And secondly, would it even be necessary for the RPG experience? It's not like most pro RPG titles even use status ailments or geometrically-ranged spells more than twice a game anyhow. Either spells hit one thing, or they hit everything.</i>

The RPG-aspect also included a directionally-sensitive defense system, where defending would double the effect of a future action, and could stack up to 5 turns, and could be critical'd for 4x that (in total: 128 x effect!!). And a small arrangement of relics and talents, again, ala FFVI.

There was also a convoluted 'plot system' that broke everything into 5 chapters: "Here's the hero(es)." "Here's the villain(s)." "Disc 1 Final Dungeon." "Gasp... it's the TWIST!" and "The Actual End (give or take the optional secret extra super-boss)!" And then it would generate endings based on 3 factors: part 1 would be wins vs. losses (you could 'fail' a chapter, and the story would continue, rather than game over), then a speck of each chapter, based on whether you've fulfilled a certain condition, and then finally the conclusion, based on your cash on hand. See, failing a level would mean you would earn less, and spend more buying gear you could otherwise discover! Better players = better cashloads = better final endings. Wink

As far as quest systems go? Screw fetch quests, it's more like 'there's this kind of cool thing here, see if you can find/do it!' Simple as that.

Five kinds of vehicles - two standard kinds of cars, one geared towards traditional racing and the second towards drifters, a heavy truck/SUV for off-roading and smashing through barriers, a motorcycle for fitting in tight gaps and big leaps/hangtime, and a 'highflyer,' which is like a lowrider with tricks like being able to turn sideways to fit in some tight gaps and being able to jump on its own with it's hydraulics. This is mainly with racing games in mind, and I don't know if I'd tie it in with 'space shooter' territory, but it's not out of the question.

Systematic layering of different... note sequences x beat timing patterns, made to fit together in differing forms of actual music theory. And I've long since lost the instrument samples I was going to associate with this. But this also included charting sequences for dance games as well, which may 'flip or rotate' based on the number of steps it had. For instance, one measure with 7 steps would be followed by a mirrored sequence in the next, so that it maintains flow and consistency.

And finally, the Level Chunker scripting process of randomizing scenarios to alternate between three tides of gameplay. For action-adventure purposes, I call them 'navigation', 'combat', and 'trap' rooms; although their dead-end versions would be designed to serve different purposes, such as stores or treasuries.

These could be scripted to fit most of the different styles of gameplay (aside from the fighting and music gaming?), using different instances of the stuff above; and then again for the different settings they would be taking place in and the kind of gameplay they would be geared towards. For instance, the standard jumping height of 5 tiles would easily tie into a screen that is 10 tiles tall, already providing (sometimes!) a 'high road' and a 'low road.'

Right now it includes inclines and curves too, but I'm not savvy enough to get the character hit detection/scripting together to make it work properly. That's one of them there 'brick walls' I'm hitting.

<i>In fact, once upon a time, I had a number of these 'level generator' ideas; including a 6-corridor looparound system for an in-world 'level select' - where each corridor was a level, and they all came back to a 'feedback path' once it was completed; and then a 'final boss' path that would open upon their completion. Another one is an 8x8 screen grid, organized in a layout that just makes a big linear track where variables within it could be randomized, even though the levels themselves would not be. It has boss chambers and one 'fork in the road' that could lead to differing outcomes, this was mostly made with 'story games' in mind.

And a third is a system of horizontal/vertical paths to make a Metroidy world, where you could only hop between the upper and lower parts by going to the far sides of it, and the bosses were all conveniently located in the corners. Each of the corridors would have a directional flow about them - left to right, right to left, free-roaming, inside-to-outside paths that would generate entrances above and/or below them... so even if the world was 'semi-static,' you would have to adjust your navigation within it.

But in the end, felt those were too static to convey the kind of variable adventurey gamefeel I was going for, and the story-like elements would be more easily scripted between stages anyhow. But I could be wrong!</i>


All of these together would function as a framework, to recreate all kinds of wonderful gaming experiences, like they're all a cohesive whole; and that's the kind of result I'm going for!

One point of indecision I stumbled upon is the matter of persistence. Making it character-oriented? Or maybe building a metagame about game players that are just playing these differently-produced titles and their inevitably overwatered sequels? Another is going with metered life versus heart containers - naturally each one fits different gameplay more smoothly than others do. And then, how much 'progression' is necessary, if each of these playthroughs is supposed to be 15-30 minute plays apiece?

The other thing - can this idea be 'demade' further, without losing the meat that would make these kinds of games fun? Should it be?
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ink.inc
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« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2014, 08:56:25 AM »

84*25=2100 frames of animation

maybe you should do a project that does not require this
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ink.inc
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« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2014, 09:03:53 AM »

also i just read that whole thing twice and i still have no idea what you're trying to make
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Blademasterbobo
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« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2014, 09:20:41 AM »

http://bobsgame.com/
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« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2014, 09:28:12 AM »

Facepalm Okay. So I started off with a nice, grandiose project that every part of my designer mindset still wants to create (and anything less ties right back into the systematic thinking involved in it). Meanwhile, I'm hitting coding walls left and right because it's clearly something that's still above me.
I'd say, make small games that are modules of your grandiose scheme and then tape them all together?
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« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2014, 09:30:35 AM »

Make Pong.  Then Zelda, Mario and Tetris. 

Making those will knock any notion out of your head of making a game that encompasses every genre known to man.

And if it doesn't, then you'll at least be prepared to start on it.
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Code_Assassin
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« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2014, 09:36:06 AM »

This seems like a huge under-taking. You should know your project's scope and your limitations. It's easy to get caught up in "I'm going to do X" and then when a person finally starts putting weight behind what their mouth says they realize the amount of work, time, and effort they will have to put into said project to make it work. I guess what I'm trying to say is "Don't let your head get ahead of your mouth" and in this case mouth would mean experience.

Games are usually consistent and have a focus yours should too. Don't be a feature creeper.

Side Note: I don't think it's our place to help you simplify your project. You know your limitations and your capabilities, so base it off of that.
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JWK5
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« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2014, 12:37:37 PM »

*Start with your core gameplay. This is the movements, attacks, etc. at their most basic. Get this working, toy with it until it feels right (i.e. prototype it). Where possible, combine things or cut things out. Distill your gameplay down to its most pure and enjoyable state.

*Don't worry about good graphics at this point, focus on informative graphics. You want to get the point across, you want the viewer (or potential artists to be brought on board) to understand what is going on and the "feel" you are going for. If it doesn't look like a tree but it is a tree then write "tree" on it. Whatever it takes to make things clear and understandable.

*Introduce and test out an addition to the central mechanics, for example maybe the weapon system. Add one weapon at a time. Get a feel for how it changes the gameplay. If it doesn't really change the gameplay for the better or much at all you probably could do without it (after all, at that point it is just extra workload with no real gain). If it works and adds to the gameplay add in another. One good weapon is better than two sub-par weapons, so don't be afraid to combine ideas.

*Virtually everything you design will sound exciting on paper because it is a new idea (to you) or you suddenly see some new connection you didn't see before, but that doesn't mean it will be good within the actual gameplay. It's always nice to keep your notes and archive old ideas, you never know when they might be the missing link in another project, but don't try to jam them in where they don't really fit. Test everything out. If the lucky charms, or spells, or 3-stage enemies, or whatever don't actually work within the gameplay (i.e. when you play the prototype) then throw them out. Make sure whatever you add in wraps around the core of your gameplay, at least in some manner or another.


The thing I've had to learn the hard way, especially in game-making but also in life in general, is that I have a very multifaceted mind when it comes to undertaking a task. My designer mind loves ideas and loves blowing them up into spiderwebs of complexity which my logical planning/programming mind absolutely hates. My brain winds up flip-flopping between "Oh! Let's do this and this and what if we add this! Yeah let's do that!" and "Holy shit... that's a lot of work! I don't have that kind of energy, time, etc. This is confusing, I don't even know how to do that!" Not to mention then my artist mind is going "It has to look perfect! PERFECT!!" while my practical mind is like "It's just a framework, we'll build on it later..." and my impatience is like "WHY IS THIS SHIT NOT DONE YET!?"

This war in my head is similar to a development team where everyone gets to have say over everything and everyone steps on each other's toes, all of which leading to nothing really getting accomplished. You have to make sure you are wearing the right hat for the right job. When you sit down to design, go crazy with it and throw it all out there. Then in the planning stage start cutting away and making things more logical and practical. In the prototyping stage make sure everything works and refine or cut away anything that doesn't. Once you have a working prototype you can go in and pretty it up. There will always be points where you have to step backward or forward a bit, but ultimately you've got to get in the right mindset for the stage of development you are in.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2014, 12:44:10 PM by JWK5 » Logged
baconman
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« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2014, 09:46:15 PM »

The thing I've had to learn the hard way, especially in game-making but also in life in general, is that I have a very multifaceted mind when it comes to undertaking a task. My designer mind loves ideas and loves blowing them up into spiderwebs of complexity which my logical planning/programming mind absolutely hates. My brain winds up flip-flopping between "Oh! Let's do this and this and what if we add this! Yeah let's do that!" and "Holy shit... that's a lot of work! I don't have that kind of energy, time, etc. This is confusing, I don't even know how to do that!" Not to mention then my artist mind is going "It has to look perfect! PERFECT!!" while my practical mind is like "It's just a framework, we'll build on it later..." and my impatience is like "WHY IS THIS SHIT NOT DONE YET!?"

This right here is exactly what's going on in me right now. And breaking this into smaller, managable chunks is what I'm doing, it's just tricky finding where to start. Simplifying is certainly the way to go here; but from a player's perspective - where do you see simplification as 'trimming the fat,' versus 'trimming the meat?'
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JWK5
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« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2014, 11:15:27 PM »

I'd recommend starting with the basic physics and movement. Once you got that you can progressively work in attacks and whatnot, but without it you really can't test anything can you?

Even though it feels like it, you're really not simplifying things so much as clarifying things and creating more harmony in the overall game play. Right now it looks like a matter of trimming the fat versus trimming the meat because you are still looking at it through designer's eyes. To get a player's perspective on your project you have to have something to actually play. Once you actually start prototyping your player sensibilities will kick in and you'll really get a feel for what is or is not necessary and worthwhile.

I don't think it is about breaking things into smaller chunks, I think it is about building it all up one brick at a time and ensuring each one works before placing the next. Things become much more manageable when they are supported by a solid foundation.
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Udderdude
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« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2014, 06:39:50 AM »

I remember editing another one of your ridiculously ambitious megafuckhuge game designs down to something more manageable, and I ended up removing ~50% of the content from it.

This one seems even more unwieldy.  I don't think I can even help you this time .. Shrug
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Blademasterbobo
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« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2014, 05:24:54 PM »

if you want to actually finish making a game, pick one of those paragraphs and delete the rest
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« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2014, 07:34:50 PM »

if you want to actually finish making a game, pick one of those paragraphs and delete the rest

this is what i was going to post

but then i read through the paragraphs with that in mind and realized that even a single one of those paragraphs would be too ambitious for someone's first finished game
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feminazi
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« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2014, 09:45:44 PM »

idgi whats the gam i jsut see lists
also dont design a gam around art assets
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Muz
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« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2014, 11:01:17 PM »

Do it Dwarf Fortress style. Build placeholders for everything and build it one block at a time.
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« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2014, 12:01:16 AM »

What I am trying to do may help you ...

I have a pretty large project in mind, a game I really want to make but I am not going to go straight for that game, mostly because I lack the overall experience to do it properly but also because no one knows me and if I did that game it would simply vanish in obscurity.

My plan originally was to make small games to learn, but I found I dont really want to make these small games so to get around that I am just making programs that use mechanics I want to learn and making a small game from that mechanic, and release that small game just to allow others to see what I am doing, get some stuff out there and build up to 'the game' I really want to make.

For example: I tried to make a side scrolling platformer / shooter but as I have little interest in those types I kind of tried to force it and basically lost imputes and the game petered out and I ended up not coding for a while (again).
My approach now to my grand project which is a rogue like, is to first make a clone of Haunted House (the old Atari console game), use this clone to play with AI pathing, lighting, Random level design and a few things of the like.
Its a easier and do able project with less graphics, and should prove to be a good stepping stone to grander schemes...

... but first I got to hit the books and learn SDL 2, so it may take a while as my coding time is limited.
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« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2014, 09:04:24 AM »

You don't need to simplify. The problem is that you don't have a farming system to help tie everything together.
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« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2014, 10:19:00 AM »

Farming system, hmm?
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ink.inc
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« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2014, 10:26:34 AM »

:~I
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Graham-
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« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2014, 02:45:39 PM »

I've worked on a large number of non-gaming software projects. Here's a tip about complex software. You don't need to have a plan. Don't think that you need one.

If you can sketch out what you want on a piece of paper, and feel productive doing it, go ahead. Then start building. When you want to "change gears" and focus on something else, do so. The act of completing things that legitimately interest you - whether it is the process itself or the product - will give you "magic insight" into what you really want to do. Software is a very fumbly process. Good programmers just know how to pivot well. No one can predict the future.

Beyond that a routine is all you need. Focus on the things you care about.
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