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[YogX]

First of all I would like to say - Bastion's soundtrack by Darren Korb is my favourite video games soundtrack ever.

Now that we got this out of the way - while browsing Apple's loops I was pretty surprised to find out that some of these loops were used as main parts in some of the tracks in the soundtrack.

As an example:
The Mancer's Dilemma - uses Orchestral Harp Pattern 20

What is your opinion about this? Is this ok to take an Apple Loop - available to everybody - and use it as the main piece in a commercial release?
I'm not meaning in a legal way - It's legit.

[Daniel Pellicer]

do you have a link or some place where I could hear the harp pattern? Im very curious right now

[YogX]

  - this is "The Mancer's Dilemma".

The harp that plays at the beginning and continues during the rest of the song is exactly "Orchestra Harp Pattern 20".
Also - there's another part in the middle that sounds like the beginning of "Orchestra Harp Pattern 27" only faster.

[MoritzPGKatz]

Hello,

When you know the much-used libraries, you can actually hear them all over the place, even in more "prestigious" fields than indie game music.
Rihanna's "Umbrella", for instance, uses an Apple Loop as its main beat.

In the end, it's all about context and making good use of your tools. The end justifies the means.
No-one but other people using the same software will notice anyway, let alone care.

Cheers,
Moritz

[YogX]

I don't think I would have a problem with a drum bit or a bass line taken from the loops library.
As long as it's something that supports the music in the background or adds something as part of a bigger thing - seems logical.
You can't re-invent the wheel with every new track.

My problem is using an Apple Loop as the main "riff" in the track. The main thing.
Kind of disappointing for me. Especially considering how much I love the soundtrack.
I still love it. It's not like the whole soundtrack is just copy and paste. Plus - the tracks with vocals are simply amazing.

So - it's still my favourite video games soundtrack and this is the one I aspire for when I'm writing myself.
But still... this one track just doesn't feel right anymore...

[Daniel Pellicer]

I don't think I would have a problem with a drum bit or a bass line taken from the loops library.
As long as it's something that supports the music in the background or adds something as part of a bigger thing - seems logical.
You can't re-invent the wheel with every new track.

My problem is using an Apple Loop as the main "riff" in the track. The main thing.
Kind of disappointing for me. Especially considering how much I love the soundtrack.
I still love it. It's not like the whole soundtrack is just copy and paste. Plus - the tracks with vocals are simply amazing.

So - it's still my favourite video games soundtrack and this is the one I aspire for when I'm writing myself.
But still... this one track just doesn't feel right anymore...

I understand what you mean but I think in a simmilar way to Moritz. I would add that this song is not one of the best of the soundtrack, maybe it has a reason . The main damaged person would be the composer and if he doesnt care then we shouldn't care so much.

As Moritz said, the important thing is the whole

[Crescent]

While for some this is an issue of contention, in most cases the use of a loop is still fair enough.

I myself try and steer away from it as much as possible, and if it is used, then I at least try and change it so it's far beyond recognition, or simply use it as a starting point for something more original.

I agree on the fact that it's a bit disappointing that it's the main theme of the track, however.

[spookgoblin]

This is all quite similar to Akira Yamaoka's work for the Silent Hill series (esp. the original four titles).  A lot of the pads, loops, and instruments he used are accessible online or by using some of the hardware he used.  Sure, he definitely tweaked the sounds to suit his needs, but in the end, it was still based heavily on something that had already been done for him.  Regardless, his work has been and will continue to be regarded as wildly innovative and original (which it is).

To some degree, this could easily segue into a discussion about the philosophy of borrowing and re-appropriating of material for the sake of art.

[Paradigm]

I was playing around with the Ultrabeat African Kit in Logic 9 a while back and noticed it sounded almost exactly like the percussion in the Breaking Bad theme.

[chris_b]

From a purely practical standpoint I'd avoid using Apple's loops as a main element of any music because of the high likelihood of falling foul of stuff like YouTube's ContentID system.

Maybe the situation is improved now - but not long ago it seemed like Orchard Music were falsely claiming copyright (and getting revenue) on pretty much anything that used Garage Band loops and Google's bureaucracy made it difficult for independent artists to address the situation.

[Ryuno]

This was brought up in Newgrounds too.

In the end, provided no one did anything they could be sued for (such as including copyrighted material without caring about a license or royalties), it's all about the end result. Anyone who cares about how sausages are made is probably better off not hearing about it, let alone working in the field.

It was never about "how" one makes music, but "what" music one makes.

[Level-Up-Audio]

My 2 cents: I think that using loops like those found in Apple Logic's loops library is acceptable in some/most situations, but frowned upon in a select few situations. For example, I think that loops are great as a source of inspiration, BUT, for the most part, I do not think that loops should be used in an actual song (only as inspiration). In my opinion, any skilled composer should be able to re-create something they hear in a loop anyways, and perhaps do it better.

In general, I think that the integrity/originality of the music is very important, especially for a medium like video games. However, I think that integrity/originality is NOT as important for a medium like TV, or Commercials. In the area of TV/Commercials, the most important thing about the music is NOT integrity/originality, but rather HOW FAST CAN WE GET THIS DONE AND MAKE IT SOUND GOOD, WHO CARES LET'S GET IT OUT GO GO GO! For example, if you watch a show like Masterchef Australia (random show, I know), you will hear non-stop Native Instruments Evolve Mutations 1+2 loop libraries. The entire show is seemingly entirely composed of loops ripped right out of Evolve Mutations. Is this ideal? No. But a show like Masterchef Australia does 60 to 80 episodes per season, at 1 hour per episode. So you imagine trying to be the music composer for that show, trying to fill 60 minutes of original music X 80 episodes. Your budget would be astronomical if you didn't save time using pre-packaged loops. Is this a bad thing? No. It saves the show money and time, and allows them to finish post-production work at a rapid pace, while saving the production company money over the course of the season.

That said, I think that most video games deserve an original music score devoid of any pre-packaged loops. You wouldn't cut-and-paste Link's sword into your character design, would you? Then why would you cut and paste a generic drum loop that some shlub at Apple spent 5 minutes creating to fill his "loop quota" for Apple Loops?

[s0]

i think it's ok as long as it sounds good and is used creatively. and if it's for a soundtrack and has to be in a certain set "style" or reflect a certain "mood" why the hell not?

ive used some existing loops myself, mostly drum loops because i can't record live drums and im kinda sick of the sound of drum machines. but i try to refrain from using too many of them because i find that doing things yourself usually leads to more interesting results.

[BlackLodgeGames]

While for some this is an issue of contention, in most cases the use of a loop is still fair enough.

I myself try and steer away from it as much as possible, and if it is used, then I at least try and change it so it's far beyond recognition, or simply use it as a starting point for something more original.

I agree on the fact that it's a bit disappointing that it's the main theme of the track, however.

Exactly how I feel.  At this point, I personally only touch drum loops, and single note instrument samples so that I don't suffer from this issue.

[Zencha]

I remember realizing this after Bastion came out and I was browsing the logic loop library. I find it smart, honestly. I have like 5 or 6 of the riffs he used in my Favorites folder under loops

Did you like the song before you heard it? Then I don't think it should matter how it was made. Two people will never produce the same song using the same loop because context is so integral to the finished piece. Loops are to music as Unity or UE is to game development. Finished product is key.

[amushel]

I agree with that sentiment. While I personally will never use prefab loops in any of my music, if he uses it as the foundation for a high quality and ultimately effective track, I couldn't care less if he made everything from the ground up. It's good music regardless.

[apertureless]

Darren Korb had a nice GDC talk about the soundtrack of bastion. He showed a bit how he was working and stuff. It's really amazing, because he was on a no-bugdet and improvised a lot.

[jamesprimate]

yeah i had a moment of shock when going to a talk by Darren, and the method he was showing was basically "find nice loop, add some stuff." Honestly, my jaw was like the whole hour. This is mostly because I had been really impressed at (what i thought was) his drum writing / production and was looking forward to some masterful demonstration of this. Being so fooled was really jarring.

I was legit mad for a bit too. As a person who works super hard at building literally every aspect from scratch for a unique experience, it was like a slap in the face. BUT... the horrible truth is that the result is whats important, and it DOES sound good, so more power too him. I bow to the wisdom. Makes me wonder sometimes why I spent all my life in a music conservatory, but whatever. There is no correlation between effort and value, nor should there be.

[PythonBlue]

Honestly, I'm not sure why there's hatred for loops among many in this thread. A huge number of non-orchestral soundtracks I've listened to use them at least a little bit; the loops from Distorted Reality 1 and 2 are used heavily in the Myst III soundtrack, for instance, and I've heard several other soundtracks making heavy use of East West's Percussive Adventures 1, which was a sample CD with an even larger portion dedicated to loops. What I'm saying is, unless you're focusing strictly on orchestral music, you've probably used a loop at some point.

My personal stance is what some others have expressed. There's nothing wrong with using loops (especially drumloops, given they don't contain melody by rule), provided you put your own mark on it somehow, whether it be slicing it up or even just changing the pitch to something other than default. Just using it the way it originally sounds is uncreative, especially if it IS the backbone of the song.

[ZackParrish]

I could care less what other people use for their drum parts... but me personally... I prefer crafting my own drum parts from scratch and refuse to use loops. Still, nothing wrong with it... totally agree with Python Blue on that front. It's overwhelming how many composers use drum loops... but if the 'loop' fits what you are looking for why bother trying to make something from scratch(unless your a stubborn a-hole like myself).