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Damycles
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« on: June 07, 2014, 10:14:06 AM »

So I recently signed onto a team, as a producer, that is getting ready to start development on a student-based indie project. I got a chance to look at their design document and it seems that they want to do a stealth based third person game. No weapons and the main way to get past enemies is to use stealth based tactics. So, my question for you guys is this: What stealth based games have you played that you've loved, and why did you love them? What mechanics felt good? If you played a terrible stealth game, what did you feel that it was lacking? This team wants to get this game right and I want to give them as much guidance as possible.
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« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2014, 01:40:43 PM »

the #1 thing that will make me stop playing a stealth based game instantly is "instant failure" when you slip up. The most fun mechanic imho is to be given a "out" where you have a chance to get away and continue where you're at. Good examples of games that do this are metal gear, thief (the original one), hitman (for the most part) and other similar games.  I think the original metal gear (not solid) probably has the best implementation I've seen in any game then or since, it was essentially the same as solid in that if you're seen the enemies go to alert mode and you have to stay unseen to get away, but unlike solid if you were clearly seen while in alert it goes into a "double alert" (!!) mode that doesn't time out or wear off, you're actually forced to dispose of the enemies in the area to reset it and continue, which in that game was a very hard task with a very high chance of death and game over...but it WAS a chance.
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« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2014, 11:58:57 PM »

awesome, thanks for the helpful feedback!
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« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2014, 11:10:04 PM »

I think the most important part is giving you the way the defend yourself but at the same time don't let you rely on that way too much. Games like Deus Ex:HR let you use your guns to play as a normal shooting gallery but you can't really depend on that way because your health isn't strong enough. Also Mark of the ninja let you attack the enemy when you are detected but can't kill them unless you became invisible again and assassinate them.
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« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2014, 03:33:12 PM »

Make the enemies reasonably smart if possible (i.e. they look for you, and go in the general direction you went if they saw you going that way), and make it so that if you fail it IS possible to escape but they will NEVER let their guard down completely (they've seen you, they know you're there, why would they?)
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« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2014, 01:37:36 PM »

I couldn't agree with Raptor85 more. That instant failure is infinitely frustrating, and passes over a great opportunity for stealth games. I find the best moments in stealth games, the moments that provide the best stories for players, is when the stealth goes wrong. Trying to beat the odds to recover from a mistake can often be more satisfying than doing it right the first time.

Another thing I'd say is let the player be proactive in the stealth mechanics. I find too many stealth games are excessively passive in nature. Constantly waiting for a guard to walk down a certain path, dealing with complex timings etc. Some of that can still exist, but allow the user some influence over it. The ability to distract guards, influence their behavior, and other methods to alter the circumstances go a long way to making the player feel involved and immersed.
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« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2014, 11:04:39 AM »

While I think that's generally true, instant failure can have its place. For instance, in the streamlined stealth platforming of the Sly Cooper series, the parameters for non-detection are generally very lenient, but it's pretty common in all of the games for detection to result in immediate job failure. I think that can work, because your main concern in with regards to sneaking is generally a matter of not sprinting while near enemies and staying out of their clearly indicated flash light range.

The Splinter Cell series, in contrast, has a complex set of mechanics relating to detection—the sound meter, the light meter, line of sight, specific obstacles like guard dogs and turrets, etc—so detection is a more significant event. The earlier games have alarm limits (sometimes no alarms allowed), but you could still adapt to the situation if you acted quickly enough. In Chaos Theory, alarms can alter AI behavior and result in progressively more difficult combat scenarios as guards equip additional armor.

The key to great stealth, I think, is a balance of power. The player has the advantage from the environment, their tools, and situational awareness against superior numbers, but is at a disadvantage in open conflict when those resources are compromised and they are on more equal tactical footing with a superior force with superior firepower. Detection generally exists as a soft failure state (as the player has failed their primarily goal of stealth), which forces the player into a situation they aren't fully equipped to handle. Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory is built around this kind of soft failure state, as the only mission failure condition tends to be player death, which can result from these soft failure states if they fail to adapt. Gadgets and the environment can still be utilized in combat if you know what you're doing, but their effectiveness is drastically reduced by the equalization of awareness between the player and the enemy. The time consuming nature of precision shooting accomplishes something similar. Lethal weapons are available, but are far more usable in non-combat situations. Getting a head shot is far more viable from the shadows than in the line of fire.

Still, the greatest joy for me in stealth games (and I say this as someone who will play nearly any game for the potential for decent stealth) is being a ghost. The tension in Thief or Splinter Cell as you hug the wall in the shadows and a guard walks past inches away is the pinnacle of that experience for me. That said, I think it would be interesting in some of these games (particularly those with reasonably well developed combat and escape mechanics) to implement a permadeath option. It would provide a unique challenge without the possibility for checkpoint abuse in the pursuit of a flawless ghost run. I think a game like Dishonored would be uniquely tension-filled (especially on the higher difficulties) if the threat of combat had a sense of permanence instead of just the threat of a reload to refine your approach. When a single shot from a guard could end your run, patience becomes vitally important.
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« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2014, 07:03:48 PM »

Stealth Bastard. It's like a cross between Splinter Cell and Super Meat Boy. Stealth games mostly have a slow pacing that can annoy, but Stealth Bastard keeps things moving quickly. You can avoid death even when detected, but you die instantly if they hit you with anything. The levels are relatively small and have well placed checkpoints to keep the frequent deaths from being too annoying.

Also Mark Of The Ninja. I loved terrifying guards into shooting each other, getting them to split up so that I could take them out one by one, and generally acting like a horror movie monster.
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« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2014, 06:57:25 PM »

Honestly, no game frustrated me into stopping playing it like the splinter cell series, i hated the instant failure in that game, especially for stupid shit not even relating to being seen. (in one mission, in the demo for 2 i believe it was (never bought the full game) it gives you an objective to stay off a certain street and, even with no guys around, if you so much as scrape your toe on the "failure" zone while trying to avoid detection in the crowded area you're "allowed" to go in, it just fails you instantly. )  I just dont find re-doing missions over and over and over until i absolutely memorize enemy movement perfectly fun.  On the flip side i have very fond memories of fucking up severely in mgs2 the first time, and ending up desperately hiding bodies in lockers all in a row then diving into a locker myself before the next guard comes around.....only to trip up alert him and end up with more locker fodder anyways, or in twin snakes having a guard get suspicious of my cardboard box that wasnt in quite the same place as last he looked, lifting it off of me only  to get punched in the face and have me scamper into a nearby vent in complete panic.  You dont even want to know how long my river walk was in MGS3.


I honestly love sneaking around and being stealthy, i love stealth games, but i get frustrated and bored re-doing missions and shit i've already done.
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« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2014, 07:40:36 PM »

I am really a fan of the genre itself and try to play as much of them as possible, but the best in the genre (in my opinion) are Mark of the Ninja, the old Thief series and Metal Gear Solid (1 and 2).

I think what is really important in stealth games is communication and making things clear. What I mean with that is how you communicate the gameplay elements and the mechanics to the player. What constitutes a shadow and what constitutes a location that could reveal the player's presence. What makes the player in non-detect mode and what makes him detectable.

For example, in Mark of the Ninja it was obvious from square 1 that if you are in a dark background, you can't be seen (unless a light is shun on you). Always when you move the steps you take generate this kind of circles around your legs, as long as the circles don't collide with the guard, you are safe. It is plain clear! There is no "but I was standing next to the light and the difference of two pixels got me caught" type thing. There is no guessing, it is WYSIWYG.

Same thing with the old Metal Gear Solids, enemies had these cones that you have to watch out for, so you exactly know when you are out of their sight and when you are within their sight. While sound wasn't THAT obvious in the early games, you quickly deducted that it is almost 1.5x - 2x the LoS of the enemy. Again, no room for guessing (except for the sound thing which wasn't pretty much an issue).

In Thief it was the same thing, you had the Light Crystal. It lights up gradually and you know from the tutorial which threshold that would get you caught so you always choose the darkest place possible.

I guess what I am trying to say is that if you are going to make a stealth based system it has to be:
1- Precise, never misses and never detects a false detection.
2- It never bugs (well as much as you can), so no standing in the dark gets you caught because the area was half lit but we just figured we show you this half way through the game, kind of thing.

The other major point is freedom. For me stealth game is about tactics, thinking and strategy. How you get from point A to Point B (be that a kill mission, a delivery mission, a find mission, etc...) in the cleverest way possible.
In Metal Gear Solid for example; at the start when you leave the elevator (2 minutes into the game) to get into the Disposal facility you had 3-4 routes in. Each of which had its own tactics to go through.

In Mark of the Ninja, most missions can be done in a multitude of ways, you can sneak out the entire level without killing a single guard or you can make it a blood bath leaving bodies everywhere (and both gave you rewards none better than the other).

This actually brings up the next point, penalties. I hated when the game would penalize me for something I did that was out of the box. I don't recall the game very well but what I remember, I was playing through the level and I had to exit a building after doing some mission. I chose to jump of the 2nd floor roof on to the 1st floor roof (a distance that the character usually jumps anywhere without taking damage), I died. All that because the script asked me to get out of the house in a certain way.
Worse, when the game would penalize me that I decided to play this level as shoot-all-on-sight when the game permitted such gameplay. I think it was one of the early Splinter Cell games (I am not sure) when one mission parameter was not to raise the alarm more than three times. But then if you kill someone while hidden and hide his body you get an alarm right on his death -- it was illogical.

So I guess as mentioned at the very beginning it is all about communication and the features given to the player working as communicated.


Sorry for the long post really but hope it helps in anyway.
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« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2014, 09:52:52 AM »


Decisions regarding how stealth plays out upon detection would in large part depend upon how hostile the game world is? Or what does a player do within ? How powerful is the player supposed to be compared to other characters within the game ?

An abrupt end to stealth can often be a superb regulatory factor, especially when it is imperative to keep the player into a forced hiding.

Take Gunpoint for example, getting detected by an armed guard causes instant death, but this rarely feels like a game over, or a tedious repetition of any sort. The minute save feature even lets you pinpoint the exact second your brilliant plan went wrong, and replay right from that instant !



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« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2014, 11:27:28 AM »



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« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2014, 02:30:19 AM »

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/content/games/yahtzee/artoftheft
Now that has everything a good stealth game needs to have.

As a stealth game. I think MetalGearSolid (1 and 2) are pretty bad. They break stealth a lot of "forced fight" sections. Finished them both, liked them both. But I wouldn't call them great stealth games.

Main problem you will have with a 3th person (or any 3D) stealth game is the ever-lasting uncertainty of "am I visible or not?" and "can I hide there?" it's very hard to judge this in a 3D environment.
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« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2014, 01:05:30 PM »

To fix the "can I hide there" problem, add some type of equipment that makes safe areas green and other areas red. Hard to mistake THAT.
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« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2014, 01:21:55 AM »

For me stealth games are about observation 80% exploration 15% and 5% action. If a world doesn't feel interesting to observe, automatically is a boring game. Look at Hitman games for example, with the right uniform you can simply stalk people and watch him go in their daily routine, that made the world feel alive as if you were only but a spectre moving around and when you have decided how to act you did surgical accurate actions procced, that is unless you choose the bang bang method.

Other older games that rely heavily in this idea is the Commandos and Desperados series and the old Thief games. While Metal Gear wasn't that much to observe(apart from some funny guards and situations) the heavy emphasis on the story made the world stand out. With MGSV though this seems to have been changed, they give you an open world to observe and explore to plan your tactics
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« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2014, 10:45:33 AM »

the tenchu: stealth assassin line of games was fantastic. You could go through an entire level, not killing anyone, and complete the objectives. As you go on, you get more tools to help you out.

As a game design perspective, guards could be considered as 'moving doors', each time you get to one (or a set), there's some set of actions necesary to get past (unlock) that room. A simple example is the guard looking away, which is like a timed door, that opens and closes. So, when you set up your levels, just draw doors at first, and then give them life with appropriate AI later on.
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« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2014, 02:02:34 AM »

I liked the stealth element present in Commandos (mostly 2). I loved doing missions being completely undetected, not killing anyone, using only a commando (except when absolutely required) among other stuff. Seldom I played online, only to see people behaving like Rambo and shooting everything on sight, while I was punching and stripping of the clothes of the soldiers.
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« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2014, 12:26:53 PM »

I always thought XIII did a great job of stealth, while not the main theme of the game there was something thrilling about being able to "see" footsteps when you were quiet enough. The best thrills are having to focus on something and wait, and the terror of knowing someone might see you from an obtuse angle, balancing movement / progression with not being seen.
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« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2014, 02:11:27 PM »

As everyone has already said, the best thing about stealth is recovering from failure. I think stealth games should actually FORCE the player to recover from failures instead of making him reload the last checkpoint. Having to redo the whole level if you die and not being able to save mid-level would be a good choice I think.

I remember the most memorable experience in Hitman 2 was when, in the first level, after killing the mob boss (or whoever that was) a guard comes in through this big double door. He stops right in front of me and it takes him a second to realize what is going on. This second was all I needed to take out the pistols and shoot him just as he was reaching for his gun. He goes flying through the double door and slides off the wall in the corridor. Everyone in the mansion heard those shots, but it was worth it and I still had a chance to escape if I was quick enough.

Another time, I was playing Hitman: Blood Money demo I think, and there was this long underground corridor with a technician doing some maintenance halfway through it. I had a disguise and was slowly walking through. Every few seconds the guy would stop his work and look at me for a moment. Finally as I was just a few meters from him he suddenly got up and started running away. I took out a silenced pistol and shot him once in the back of the head, never stopping walking.
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