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coolart
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« on: July 25, 2014, 06:17:19 PM »

i can do everything involved in making a modest commercial indie game except program and am wondering what the first step should be if i don't want to to learn to program? i whipped up a quick 18-second video that's supposed to mimic a real-time video game and show an example of what i'd like:



(i.e. scenes of typical 'talking-heads' voice-acted dialogue continue the story, in which i can set a background, set two character assets always in the same spots, set them as either active when talking or inactive and grayed-out when not, a very simple unambitious 1-player 2-d fighting game round loads involving two characters who only look different but who fight the same, the only movement commands being stand still, back, forward, crouch, jump up, jump back, jump forward, and the only attack commands being quick attack and strong attack, and the enemy AI is likely just a mashing of random commands to mimic AI, and the player must defeat the enemy to auto-save and continue the story)
i'd like to have a software or code that takes care of the programming so i can just do my thing. then after months of working on it alone, i give all credit where it's due and sell it on the major platforms like xbox live, ps store, steam, maybe phones if that's possible. i'm no programmer but i've purposely kept everything so minimal that i assume the 'game design' i described makes for easy coding?
what's my first step?
thanks!
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Schilcote
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« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2014, 01:12:04 PM »

My advice would be to learn where the shift key is on your keyboard. Ba-dum tiss.

Ultimately, you have three options: learn to develop the technicals yourself, get someone else to do it for you, or, as you're asking about, use a "kit" solution.

The first is probably going to be the most rewarding path in the long term. It will also take the most up-front investment, however. If you're interested in going down that road, I suggest you start learning Python; it's an easy-to-use language in itself (compared to, say, C) and its extensive library support will lighten the load when you start developing your project in earnest (in fact, your "talking heads" sound an awful lot like what the Ren'Py library is designed for). But no matter what you're going to want to spend at the very least a few months - if not a year or more - getting familiar with how to code before you're really ready to start coding for the project you actually set out to make in the first place.

The second solution is a balance between the first and third; you'll have the flexibility that being able to write actual code provides without having to make the time investment to learn how to do it yourself. The problem with getting help, though, is that you might have trouble finding someone who is willing to do so. You can pretty much expect they're going to want to be paid, and I don't imagine you're going to want to pony up cash.

The third solution, the one you seem the most keen on, is to use an out-of-the-box game kit. My experience with these sorts of things has been... less than positive. Ultimately, you're either going to end up writing code - which is the very thing you're trying to avoid in the first place - or you're going to have to tailor your design to the tools you're using. People have done great things in RPG Maker, but nearly all had to be stuffed into the "standard JRPG" mold to work with it, and suffered greatly as a result. Since your idea is kind of strange, I doubt you'll find a "no-code" kit solution that'll support it. If you go down that path, you're either going to have to change the plan or end up coding anyway, at which point you're probably better off just learning Python.

Still, I've heard good things about Game Maker; you might look into that. There's a whole archive of such tools here; scroll down to "Game-Making Software".

EDIT:

Ah, I missed the part where you said you intended to sell the thing. I think you're getting just a little bit ahead of yourself. You probably shouldn't try to sell the first thing you make. Actually, the general rule of creativity is that you shouldn't even show anyone the first few things you make. You're going to want to get some experience under your belt before you actually try to get people to play a game you made.

And no solution is going to let you release on that many different platforms. The return on investment involved in doing that is very, very unfavorable. Stick to PC.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 01:18:29 PM by Schilcote » Logged
SolarLune
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« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2014, 06:06:03 AM »

^ This seems to be solid advice. I'd pretty much second that with a follow-up. Your first step should be outlining (pretty quickly; doesn't have to be a big deal) what features you want. It sounds like you want something that's cross-platform. So, I'd probably advise something like Unity, or perhaps a more low-level code-based approach like Monogame or jME3, or possibly Haxe + HaxeFlixel / HaxePunk / OpenFL / whatever.

I'm not sure exactly how one gets their product onto XBL or PSN's store, but I'd pretty much just focus on the three Win + Mac + Linux. Mobile's a market, sure, but not really a place for major, time-spending games (i.e. the kinds of games that I'd want to make). If you're aiming for something that will hit the spot at 10 minute increments, then yeah, you might want to aim for mobile.

So, outlining the features you'll need, as you can see, is pretty effective. You're going to have to learn to code, generally, in order to make anything of merit - very few GUI-only game creation tools actually fill in the blanks of code effectively and efficiently enough to merit usage, in my experience. It seems like you'd just be better off in the long run taking the months to learn the language you want to use.
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Schilcote
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« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2014, 06:24:59 AM »

I'd pretty much just focus on the three Win + Mac + Linux. Mobile's a market, sure, but not really a place for major, time-spending games (i.e. the kinds of games that I'd want to make). If you're aiming for something that will hit the spot at 10 minute increments, then yeah, you might want to aim for mobile.

I wouldn't even go that far. Until you've kicked a significant amount of ass, don't go cross-platform at all unless it's completely free (like if you're using Python, for example, you can oftentimes have 100% identical code work on all of the Big Three). Cross-platform debuggery is unfun.

I'll also super-second planning ahead. Write a design document. It's so much easier and more fun to code when you've got a design worked out beforehand. Design the whole thing down to what each individual function and object will do, then just create those objects and functions.
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erebusman
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« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2014, 07:24:53 AM »

i can do everything involved in making a modest commercial indie game except program and am wondering what the first step should be if i don't want to to learn to program? i whipped up a quick 18-second video that's supposed to mimic a real-time video game and show an example of what i'd like:



(i.e. scenes of typical 'talking-heads' voice-acted dialogue continue the story, in which i can set a background, set two character assets always in the same spots, set them as either active when talking or inactive and grayed-out when not, a very simple unambitious 1-player 2-d fighting game round loads involving two characters who only look different but who fight the same, the only movement commands being stand still, back, forward, crouch, jump up, jump back, jump forward, and the only attack commands being quick attack and strong attack, and the enemy AI is likely just a mashing of random commands to mimic AI, and the player must defeat the enemy to auto-save and continue the story)
I'd like to have a software or code that takes care of the programming so i can just do my thing. then after months of working on it alone, i give all credit where it's due and sell it on the major platforms like xbox live, ps store, steam, maybe phones if that's possible. I'm no programmer but I've purposely kept everything so minimal that i assume the 'game design' I described makes for easy coding?
what's my first step?
thanks!

I've been doing the 'everything but programming' approach from 1995 to 2012. 

In that time I had my name on 3 titles total. I also worked on something in excess of over 20 other projects with teams that never shipped!!

In 2012 I decided I had had enough of failing due to faults that were often beyond my control (programmer decides he isn't interested anymore for instance) and dedicated myself to learning how to program and become a one man 'I can do it all, including programming' approach. 

In the two years since I started learning to program I have now completed and shipped 6 games and am working on number 7 right now.

You might have better luck; but if you really are dedicated and want to see your ideas come to fruition nothing beats doing the job yourself in my humble opinion.
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Infernohawke Entertainment
glintycreative
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« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2014, 10:13:52 PM »

I think you can use Construct 2. I can program so I have never used it, but my artist friend say that you don't need to know coding and he has been using it for 2 years, so you can take a good look of it.
Game Maker Studio is also a good choice if you know just a litle bit of programming. It's use some basic syntax of C, so if you learn C for about 1 or 2 months, that's enough. I often use Game Maker Studio for small games.
I also use Unity, but unless you have good background on Java or C#, you should not use it. We programmers like it because it's look like proper coding, but Unity is not for novice programmers.
Just my 2 cents, if you are not into programming, it's best not to learn it. If you use something like Construct 2, you might encounter some limit. However, if your art is good and you have ideas, you can still make great games.
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Sushi
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« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2014, 04:44:17 PM »

Like glintycreative said, Construct 2 really seems a great choice for non-programmers. If I'm not mistake a very popular indie developer called Konjak uses it to make gorgeous 2D games, and from what I've heard he's more of an artist, with just "limited" programming knowledge, whatever that means.

Some people have advised to learn programming from the basics, but really, I dont think you want to be messing with Phyton or something else that does not give fast results in short term.
If you want to do the code yourself instead of teaming of someone, just grab one of those game-maker tools.

Also if you want to go 3D then of course, Unity is the best way, but requires more work. In the beginning you can do lots of things with scripts you find in ther web. Then you can start looking at the scripts and modifying them a bit, at first just the numbers, then maybe learn a bit about conditionals, etc.
Maybe even find a complete game project and start playing it, understanding how everything is setup etc.

All in all, unless you really want to go solo, it is really better to join a team. There's lots of programmers who are in the opposite situation and need artists. Usually the problem is to find someone who wants to do the same game as you  Who, Me?
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