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[joe_eyemobi]

The term Roguelike is so loosely used in recent times for games that feature: permadeath, and random level generation, for example Spelunky and FTL.  However the roots of the term come from the original Rogue (and it's variants) which was turn-based and used ASCII art.  Is it time for a new term?

http://bit.ly/1tzaRzc

[rj]

permanent death, each playthrough randomly generated, no progress saved between playthroughs aside from MAAAAYBE extras (see: spelunky's level skips and don't starve's character unlocks). one of these three things missing and it's a roguelite, i think.

mind you, it's a term that's largely archaic and it's definitively not a genre. rather, it's a subgenre; you can have a "roguelike" platformer, rpg, eroge, whatever.

[surt]

Rogue-lite, roguelike-like, procedural death labyrinth already exist.

Suggesting that a game isn't a member of a game-genre simply for an aesthetic choice (visual representation as characters) strikes me as quite ludicrous. Games are defined by their game-play not how they are presented.

[s0]

as i see it roguelikes are games that use the core features of the game "rogue" from 1980, a turnbased, nonmodal (i.e. no "battle screens" or whatever) dungeon crawler with randomly generated levels.

[Muz]

What I don't like is people saying roguelike to mean permadeath and random item generation.

IMO:
- difficult decisions and living with the results of those decisions. something which can be won with a walkthrough isn't much of a roguelike (but then again ADOM...)
- no savescumming
- turn based. spelunky/ftl don't count
- being able to do dumb things like throwing a rock at a shopkeeper, having him chase you, sacrificing him on an altar, and having the deity pissed off at the sacrifice and giving the shopkeeper godly powers. not being able to do hilariously dumb things categorizes it as "roguelite".

[baconman]

Anything that takes influence from Rogue, in hopes of creating a similar or identical game cycle experience.

Also, there is a "newfangled term" for it, though I haven't heard it used much:

PROCEDURAL DEATH GAUNTLET/LABYRINTH

[rek]

It's "roguelike" not "rogueclone" – it evokes Rogue, doesn't reproduce it.

[Martin 2BAM]

For me it means permanent death and procedural generation of maps and battles.

Procedural Death Labyrinth seems like an ok/more accurate replacement.

[joe_eyemobi]

Yeah it's interesting how the term has evolved so much over the years.  It does seem like the common elements are permadeath and random level generation. Interestingly there are a few other games that hybridize the term now too, e.g. Roguelike-FPS, Roguelike-Platformer etc... I guess it's just the natural evolution of such a fast-changing industry!

[ActiveUnique]

My first impression was rogue-likes promote just enough randomness and erroneous game-breaking results from your own choices.  Regardless of save features.

Permadeath wasn't wide-spread until recently, considering many old games were already brutally unforgiving, even with a generous password and 3 extra lives.


You should be able to say something along the lines of. This won't be a cake walk.

end

It's probably best to say a roguelike game will frequently have at least one selection of any feature turning a new player into a confused quivering pile.

[SimplyRivet]

I feel like the term rogue-like generally refers to a procedurally generated world, that is semi-linear, where one character is being controlled. Perma-death is somewhat optional, although the spirit of a rogue-like is that you have one shot.

The intent with a rogue-like is usually creating a massive amount of content, with a comparatively small amount of work. The idea is that the content feels new on consecutive playthroughs.

[Glyph]

I don't know about the small amount of work thing, haha. At least regarding the best/popular roguelikes, encyclopedias of content are made with the knowledge that most players will never see everything in them. A lot of the games have wikis dedicated to them. For quick development though, sure, some procedural elements can work as a fast alternative to linear development.

Regarding difficulty, I think it's a blade that's been dulled slightly over the years, when looking at the 'roguelike' or whatever-you-want-to-call-it genre. A lot of this was in the name of clarity -- is it really your fault for putting on an amulet of choking in NetHack if you didn't know it existed? -- and some of it for accessibility. It's a shift with benefits and downsides, in my eyes.

[valrus]

For the traditionalist view, there's the Berlin Interpretation (http://www.roguebasin.com/index.php?title=Berlin_Interpretation).  I don't think a lot of these requirements are necessary, and some are kinda silly as requirements for being in a genre (like no monster-monster relationships).

There's on thing on the list that doesn't get talked about that I think is an important trait (although I wouldn't necessarily say something without this trait wasn't a roguelike):

Non-modal: Movement, battle and other actions take place in the same mode. Every action should be available at any point of the game. Violations to this are ADOM's overworld or Angband's and Crawl's shops.

You can see this influence even in nontraditional PDLs like Spelunkly, Binding of Isaac, etc.

The condition I think is most important (for the game, not for whether it's a "roguelike") is:

Complexity: The game has enough complexity to allow several solutions to common goals. This is obtained by providing enough item/monster and item/item interactions and is strongly connected to having just one mode.

This is the feature that too many new PDLs are missing, the ones where it's just a random maze where you rub yourself against enemies until one of you dies.  Roguelikes really shine when the vagaries of chance and player input set up entirely novel situations and stories, where you either succeed in a way you never thought possible or die in a hilariously new way.

Not that mazerubbers aren't roguelikes, condemned for the crime of being insufficiently complex.  I just don't think they're very *good* roguelikes.

[SimplyRivet]

I don't know about the small amount of work thing, haha. At least regarding the best/popular roguelikes, encyclopedias of content are made with the knowledge that most players will never see everything in them.

I didn't mean to imply that there was less work that is done on rogue-likes compared to most games. I was trying to say that for the amount of content and replay value that is created, less work is going into the game than if they manually created each level.

Basically you are creating a theoretically infinite amount of content, with a finite amount of development time.

[CesarD8]

I think that the modern roguelike games are more focused on the permadeath and the random generation of labyrinths and loot, as you said. Those are the core characteristics of the modern roguelikes, the ascii art and the turn based are generational characteristics that if applied today would cripple the potential audience of the game. One very good example of a modern roguelike would be "Rogue Legacy" it has the Permadeath, the random generation of the labyrinth, loot, and enemies.

I believe that an update to the term roguelike is what is needed, instead of making a new term.

[oodavid]

TBH, I don't care which specific features are taken from the original, just so long as the term "roguelike" evokes the right emotional response to understand the game being presented. Ultimately there are many games that you could call roguelike but are too many clicks away to be a decent description:

Rogue - Procedural + 2D Graphics = Zelda
Rogue - Turnbased + Rendered Isometric GFX = Diablo
Rogue - Turnbased + 3D Camera = First Person Shooter

As an aside - from a coders standpoint, I think a Rogue-Clone would be an excellent exercise to practice game development; the design requirement is low, there's a few "standard" algorithms to write and there's a clear end-game. Using that as a starting point you could easily evolve your way to many a modern-style of video game.

[CesarD8]

I don't think that Zelda and First Person Shooter are a very accurate example, the first doesn't have any of the characteristics of the roguelike and First Person Shooter is now a genre, not a game. Diablo on the other hand is a good example, everything is randomly generated but Tristram.

[ActiveUnique]

Genre has one overbearing problem. It gets defined and redefined every time someone tries something slightly new. Even if you force a definition someone will use their own in creating something new.

[oodavid]

I don't think that Zelda and First Person Shooter are a very accurate example, the first doesn't have any of the characteristics of the roguelike and First Person Shooter is now a genre, not a game. Diablo on the other hand is a good example, everything is randomly generated but Tristram.

I think you misunderstand, I want to highlight the fact that these games / genres have many of the same features as Rogue (pathfinding, hoarding, permadeath etc.). Since Rogue is such an early influential game it would be trivial to trace back ideologies from any manner of games to that era of thinking, it's evolution. Wolfenstein 3D had a random map generator and wouldn't suffer with the description "Roguelike in 3D" - yes, the 3D part was mind-bending at the time, and?

What I think is important when categorising games (or art, music etc.) is the fact that the classification, as is understood in the current lexicon is enough for a person to get a feel for what to expect. If someone said to me "Roguelike with voxels", "Manga Roguelike" or "Roguelike with Puzzles" etc. I reckon we could get someway to grokking the concept.

[s0]

"procedural generation" (aka randomization) and "permadeath" are two of the oldest and most traditional features in games. in fact you could argue they're the norm and videogames with designed levels and checkpoints are an exception.

also imo the problem with the "expanded" definition of roguelike is that its not used very consistently and is (so far) more of a buzzword. why isn't anyone calling solitaire or candy crush or flappy bird a "roguelike"?