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[Blademasterbobo]

 

[Blambo]

I believe this is relevant to the discussion:

it seems like she talks about that study where gamers are mostly women (the one that doesn't count digital downloads and stuff but that's kind of irrelevant) and doesn't realize (or make clear) that correlation =/= causation. sommers always kind of pushes to the status quo, citing examples of games that aren't the worst misogynist crap, not acknowledging that the reason why things that don't suck exist is because people had to push for a lot of them (not all of them, but a lot of them).

regardless of the issues in the argument, she misses the point. it's not that right now ALL VIDEO GAMES are sexist or ALL GAMERS (defined as "people who play games") are misogynist pigs. no one has actually been making sincere blanket statements like the assumption is. the point is that like any other medium, it has rhetorical power in its aesthetics, its context, and its straight up verbal argument, and having a body of work that contains these messages unopposed creates problems. as cultural things, video games have the same subconscious and conscious weight as movies, books, news, public education, visual art etc, and ignoring the cultural cachet of these things is blind and irresponsible.

she keeps pointing out that violence in video games doesn't affect gamer mindsets in any way, ignoring the fact that influencing people's gender politics is a far cry from making them killing machines. i don't understand how she can try to make an argument through media that is "you can't make arguments through media" without yelling over the muffled sound of her head in her own ass! as dorky as it sounds to care about this, she doesn't actually have respect for the cultural value of games or the persuasive qualities of any kind of culture. the argument has never been that "video games are brainwashing people into being sexist", it's always had in mind that people that consume culture can also be smart, independent, capable human beings, that even rational people are swayed by rhetoric and volume.

i really fucking hate sommers. she's always taken the stance of "centrism" and "rationality" but the argument has never been two sided! her whole platform is a big bloated political sand castle for almost no purpose but to exist, treating anything outside of the status quo to be extreme and the result of "hysteria".

and the worst part is people fucking buy it because it panders to the confirmation bias of every ass-backwards, overstimulated, possessive, defensive, carpal-tunneled, paranoid, anime watching bristly-necked shaving-razor-repellent cheeto receptacle in all of north america. this is politics, nothing else.

[Tuba]

I agree that she misses the point there, but I like how she points that games are in fact becoming more inclusive and end up in an optimistic note for the future. I think we need a little more optimism.

[Derek]

I agree that she misses the point there, but I like how she points that games are in fact becoming more inclusive and end up in an optimistic note for the future. I think we need a little more optimism.

Yeah, but as BLAMBO pointed out, why are they becoming more inclusive? Well, because people demanded it, not because it was handed over by "gamers".

Similarly, she points out that millennial males are "far less prone to these prejudices". Well, again, that's probably because people fought for that to be the case. Those prejudices certainly didn't go away because people started playing Super Mario Bros. in the 80's.

Her argument (which is really a Gamergate argument, just like all of the arguments presented in her video) boils down to gaming being inclusive enough that women shouldn't complain, but not inclusive enough that their opinions matter. Which is really sad.

[Nillo]

and the worst part is people fucking buy it because it panders to the confirmation bias of every ass-backwards, overstimulated, possessive, defensive, carpal-tunneled, paranoid, anime watching bristly-necked shaving-razor-repellent cheeto receptacle in all of north america. this is politics, nothing else.

Funny how body-shaming seems to be accepted as long as it's targeted at the right demographic.

[s0]

dude, a beard is a fashion choice (or in the case of neckbeards, a lack of fashion choice ehehehehe).

[jamesprimate]

the point is that like any other medium, it has rhetorical power in its aesthetics, its context, and its straight up verbal argument, and having a body of work that contains these messages unopposed creates problems. as cultural things, video games have the same subconscious and conscious weight as movies, books, news, public education, visual art etc, and ignoring the cultural cachet of these things is blind and irresponsible.

 

and the worst part is people fucking buy it because it panders to the confirmation bias of every ass-backwards, overstimulated, possessive, defensive, carpal-tunneled, paranoid, anime watching bristly-necked shaving-razor-repellent cheeto receptacle in all of north america. this is politics, nothing else.

damn right. gaming has for a long time been one of the few large social shared spaces that actively ignores politics. for many (and for sure the most hardcore demographic) it functioned *specifically* as an active escape from politics, the emasculating real world, etc. you hear that "games should be fun!" refrain so often (bizarrely, usually before a string of disturbing sexist expletives.) for many games are an oblivion; an opiate, an escape, a wish-fulfilling fantasyland transcendence of self. its no wonder that now some are squirming when being dragged out from under their rock and having their behavior scrutinized by the very forces they actively run from. similarly, its not surprising that something festering under a rock for so long has become repulsive. the lights have been turned on and we dont like what we see.

truly, i think the argument of "games as art" cuts to the core of this. if games are just fantasy wish-fulfillment then they have little obligation to be anything more than porn, and thats how a disturbingly large portion of gamers like it. its no wonder that indie devs (and social critics) trying to elevate the medium are the ones being targeted.

[Nillo]

dude, a beard is a fashion choice (or in the case of neckbeards, a lack of fashion choice ehehehehe).

Haha, yeah. Neckbeards, amirite? Shame on them and their poor life decisions. They're probably fat, too, after eating all those cheetos. Who could agree with a guy like that?

Urgh. If anyone talks like this and then pretends to be a champion of social justice, I want nothing to do with them.

[s0]

r u seriously calling a beard a life decision? jesus chris

[Blambo]

dude, a beard is a fashion choice (or in the case of neckbeards, a lack of fashion choice ehehehehe).

Haha, yeah. Neckbeards, amirite? Shame on them and their poor life decisions. They're probably fat, too, after eating all those cheetos. Who could agree with a guy like that?

Urgh. If anyone talks like this and then pretends to be a champion of social justice, I want nothing to do with them.

i guess like

even if that stuff was irrelevant it's not fair to make a character judgement based on these characteristics, but i'm being largely descriptive, not prescriptive. still, alienating people isn't good politics not does it help any cause, so sorry. i was venting a lot.

and my weird diatribe against nerds wasn't as well thought out as jamesprimate's haha

[Nillo]

i guess like

even if that stuff was irrelevant it's not fair to make a character judgement based on these characteristics, but i'm being largely descriptive, not prescriptive. still, alienating people isn't good politics not does it help any cause, so sorry. i was venting a lot.

All right, apology accepted.

I don't even agree entirely with the video in question, I just want to point out that everyone has to be careful with their language and reasoning and not resort to the same tactics which they criticize others for using.

[starsrift]

I agree that she misses the point there, but I like how she points that games are in fact becoming more inclusive and end up in an optimistic note for the future. I think we need a little more optimism.

Yeah, but as BLAMBO pointed out, why are they becoming more inclusive? Well, because people demanded it, not because it was handed over by "gamers".

Similarly, she points out that millennial males are "far less prone to these prejudices". Well, again, that's probably because people fought for that to be the case. Those prejudices certainly didn't go away because people started playing Super Mario Bros. in the 80's.

Her argument (which is really a Gamergate argument, just like all of the arguments presented in her video) boils down to gaming being inclusive enough that women shouldn't complain, but not inclusive enough that their opinions matter. Which is really sad.

Probably worth pointing out that Sommers is looking at things from an "are they actively misogynist?" lens, and not "are they inclusive enough?".
Which is more or less the underlying reason that Sarkeesian's arguments are poorly made. She's, on the surface, trying to push the "games are misogynist" point, but what she's actually fighting for is inclusivity, which is what results in these awkward contortions of gameplay and mechanics to present something as misogynist that she makes.

Filter that through the mind of a "gamer", whatever that term means right now, and it's all too easy to interpret as "playing these games is misogynist". Which, like Sommers says, is going to result in "GTFO".
But Sarkeesian is correct in that we should be aiming for inclusivity, not non-misogyny.

[BarchKing]

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/09/17/Exposed-the-secret-mailing-list-of-the-gaming-journalism-elite

the journalist mailing list got leaked out, going to be interesting how this development is perceived.

[battlerager]

I believe this is relevant to the discussion:

Yeah, I feel she misses the point on this one. This video is still relevant in a way, but not for this discussion. Only a few years ago, mainstream media (at least here in Germany) hated on videogames and the people that play them so hard that this video would have been excellent. For the topics at hand right now though - not so relevant.

regardless of the issues in the argument, she misses the point. it's not that right now ALL VIDEO GAMES are sexist or ALL GAMERS (defined as "people who play games") are misogynist pigs. no one has actually been making sincere blanket statements like the assumption is. the point is that like any other medium, it has rhetorical power in its aesthetics, its context, and its straight up verbal argument, and having a body of work that contains these messages unopposed creates problems. as cultural things, video games have the same subconscious and conscious weight as movies, books, news, public education, visual art etc, and ignoring the cultural cachet of these things is blind and irresponsible.

she keeps pointing out that violence in video games doesn't affect gamer mindsets in any way, ignoring the fact that influencing people's gender politics is a far cry from making them killing machines.

I think this stems from her lack of knowledge on the topic of video games and her penchant for relying on statistics and data (if she does this well or not I can't tell you) - and by now, there are tons of studies on the subject of video games and real world violence. School schootings triggered discussion on this years ago (see beginning of my post) and these studies were conducted because it was the big topic at the time.

On the other hand, there's probably no (or very few) studies on video games and cultural / political influence; I'd argue that to really talk about this, one has to dissect the games themselves under a culture studies lens, like one'd do for movies or books. This has started happening (even at my university a bit) in academia, but it is pretty young. The state of the research and discussion is essentially too young for someone on the outside like Sommers to contribute, you have to be willing and able to really go into the specifics here.


Many of Sarkeesian's points of critique I completely agree with, but it's the sometimes condescending tone she presents them in that probably drives many people crazy. Also I think it could be better to look at specific examples more in detail (with actual references / quotations, talking to the developers, publishers, journalists and players involved) instead of presenting a long list of examples she might or might not have played herself.

The topics and issues are relevant, but the discussion is not on the right track yet.

[nikki]

That nicely lipsticked girl has some good points, the way she keeps on repeating the same 'whore' parts though makes me want to not listen further.
She also reminds me of these hysterical people who always feel opressed and discriminated against.

at the same time though her role is very gender specific, luckily I do know girls that actually just make games instead of nagging about how boys make the games.

in some other thread I found tis link wich is way more scientific and makes me feel happy about the world



(are videogames sexist?)

[Schoq]

ugh I hate when disadvantaged groups share their experiences. luckily I'm in a position of power to dismiss it as hysterics without consequence

[rj]

<3 you schoq

in some other thread I found tis link wich is way more scientific and makes me feel happy about the world



(are videogames sexist?)

I believe this is relevant to the discussion:

Yeah, I feel she misses the point on this one. This video is still relevant in a way, but not for this discussion

did you just not read the posts above you

anyway, we talked about the issues about that video both in said other thread and here, so i'm not gonna bring them up again, but i assure you it's not based on anything "scientific" or "logical" in the slightest

much more relevant to this discussion imo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjA98mrJJO0

[battlerager]

much more relevant to this discussion imo:

Yeah it's a good presentation; I won't speak too much about it as I still need to watch like the last 15 minutes or so of it.

The whole "you gotta accept the fraternity rules to have a social life" thing made me roll my eyes, but then again I'm neither in the USA nor a very outgoing person, so I dunno.

I think my brother went to a similar thing once here in Germany, and found it super pointless, douchy and unenjoyable. He left and never went there again. These places seem to be breeding grounds for conservative nonsense and machismo.

[nikki]

but i assure you it's not based on anything "scientific" or "logical" in the slightest

why not, she measures  , how is that not scientific?

edit: but actually I wanted to post that response in  the other thread about minorities, then it makes more sense

[battlerager]

but i assure you it's not based on anything "scientific" or "logical" in the slightest

why not, she measures  , how is that not scientific?

edit: but actually I wanted to post that response in  the other thread about minorities, then it makes more sense

Basically she's using a boatload of statistics and research (I'm not sure if she linked it, I don't remember) that aren't relevant to the topic. It's like writing a paper on the wrong topic and handing it in and then your professor gives you a bad grade and you are confused.