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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGeneralEveryone knows how to make games better than you do.
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Author Topic: Everyone knows how to make games better than you do.  (Read 2339 times)
alvarop
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« on: September 15, 2014, 08:45:17 AM »

Let me just start off by saying that I make games for fun, as a hobby. I am not a professional and not as skilled as many people here, but I'm sure you have experienced what I'm about to talk about.

Every - single - time I tell someone I make games or I'm interested in making games, they always know what I should do and how I should do it, even though they have never, ever made anything that ressembles a game.

. "Make a game about X and Y, it will sell."
. "You need to do some market research."
. They give me design advice that doesn't make any sense in the context of the game.
. etc.

I'm not making this thread to bitch about this, but maybe to share similar experiences and to try to understand what makes "games" a medium in which people feel like they always know better than those that make the games -  besides the fact that it's a popular media form. The same happens for movies, books and music - amongst others - I'm sure, but I'm wondering what makes it so easy for people to voice their opinion in that way, specifically when it comes to video-games. Also, I want to listen to your stories about this, I'm sure there's some funny ones out there.

edit : maybe I'm bitching.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2014, 08:52:59 AM by alvarop » Logged

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Alevice
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« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2014, 09:16:59 AM »

its not just games, it sabout every skill/profession ever, and its bragging rights and nothing else. bgi deal.
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alvarop
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« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2014, 09:17:54 AM »

I guess you're right, but it's not every skill/profession, only "creative" ones.

I can't plumb like a plumber plumbs, u know.
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Alevice
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« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2014, 10:02:42 AM »

i have faced on both creative and non creative.
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Netsu
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« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2014, 10:10:43 AM »

I think it's easiest to comment on games because there's so many things that you can, and need to, come up with to make a game.
You need a setting and a story, like books and movies, but you also need a visual style (which is rarely a thing in movies), overall structure, mechanics, controls, enemies... everyone can find something they think they know better than everybody. Those are the infamous 'idea people'.

But at the same time, for the very same reason, it's much harder to come up with ideas for games that actually make sense. Because you can't just look at one aspect and come up with solutions based on that, you need to think about how that ties into the rest of the game.
People have this specific enemy or boss ideas, but they don't even think about what the controls are for the game or what the combat system look like.

Games are special in that many people who play them often have little why are they good or bad. They think they know how to fix a game, when in reality it would only make it worse.
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MorganRamsay
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« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2014, 02:11:18 PM »

Everyone thinks they're marketing experts, too.

There are many people who talk more than they listen, and when they listen, they listen to the wrong people.

Fortunately, disaster strikes only when the people who should defer to others don't.
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« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2014, 03:01:47 PM »

People tend to believe they are very familiar with how things are created and the skills involved if they see the end result and have done something akin to the work involved before in their life. The most common example is probably writing, so many people I know believe that writing is an easy job, something most can do. They have written before, they have seen professionals do writing that makes them think they could do better, and voila, they believe themselves experts.

People always comment on economic issues (Minimum wage should be X!) because they made a food budget that one time, and almost kept to it too. People comment on design and balance positions (This character is OP!) because they played the game for half an hour and died a lot while never adjusting their strategy. Theyll even comment on art without knowing what a complimenting color is because "I dont like it, it should look more like this other thing".

But, as you noted, they dont usually comment on something of a mechanical nature (plumbing, engineering, etc). At most theyll say "The programmers did a bad job!" but will not go into specifics. I believe this is because with something mechanical, its hard to say you know better without being able to show it. I can say "The design of this game sucks" and youll find it hard to argue because a game having bad design is so open to interpretation. But you cant tell a plumber he did something wrong if there is no exact mechanical issue to point out, leaving solid ground for a discussion and understanding.

There are exceptions, of course. I am not an expert on Kickstarters or running a business, but I definitely can tell you some major red flags I see in certain kickstarters (Yogscast being an easy target, apologies for beating a dead horse), and at least how to avoid some of those. You can point out that the programming does not stand up to its competition (anyone who has tried to re-connect in Heroes of the Storm has a legitimate gripe without knowing why the code is bad). They know because they can identify an issue exactly: it takes 15+ minutes to recconect in that game, and about 15 seconds in similar games. (The game is in alpha currently, of course)

You have to take every case on its own merit, and I find it useful to consider how much detail the complaint/advise goes into. If they can be specific and keep on point, you can make something of it. Otherwise, its normally someone talking out their behind without realizing it.
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jamesprimate
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« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2014, 03:41:55 PM »

ahahah this is so true. everybody is an "idea man" Tongue but its easy to have ideas when you are oblivious as to what it would take to actually implement them. you get this even from people who should know better, publishers, etc. "you should just ________" (which usually involves throwing out 6 months of code or something equally horrifying)
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OttselKnight
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« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2014, 04:24:35 PM »

ahahah this is so true. everybody is an "idea man" Tongue but its easy to have ideas when you are oblivious as to what it would take to actually implement them. you get this even from people who should know better, publishers, etc. "you should just ________" (which usually involves throwing out 6 months of code or something equally horrifying)

Haha, I DREAD any conversation along those lines at work now. The horror stories I could tell about switching engines mid development, against the unanimous advice of the engineers, are really something else. No one ever wants to listen to us, it feels like.

No one can sink a ship better than a captain, and its all too often a studio shutters because the man at the helm couldnt be bothered to listen to reason Wink
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alvarop
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« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2014, 04:38:54 PM »

People tend to believe they are very familiar with how things are created and the skills involved if they see the end result and have done something akin to the work involved before in their life. The most common example is probably writing, so many people I know believe that writing is an easy job, something most can do. They have written before, they have seen professionals do writing that makes them think they could do better, and voila, they believe themselves experts.

People always comment on economic issues (Minimum wage should be X!) because they made a food budget that one time, and almost kept to it too. People comment on design and balance positions (This character is OP!) because they played the game for half an hour and died a lot while never adjusting their strategy. Theyll even comment on art without knowing what a complimenting color is because "I dont like it, it should look more like this other thing".

But, as you noted, they dont usually comment on something of a mechanical nature (plumbing, engineering, etc). At most theyll say "The programmers did a bad job!" but will not go into specifics. I believe this is because with something mechanical, its hard to say you know better without being able to show it. I can say "The design of this game sucks" and youll find it hard to argue because a game having bad design is so open to interpretation. But you cant tell a plumber he did something wrong if there is no exact mechanical issue to point out, leaving solid ground for a discussion and understanding.

There are exceptions, of course. I am not an expert on Kickstarters or running a business, but I definitely can tell you some major red flags I see in certain kickstarters (Yogscast being an easy target, apologies for beating a dead horse), and at least how to avoid some of those. You can point out that the programming does not stand up to its competition (anyone who has tried to re-connect in Heroes of the Storm has a legitimate gripe without knowing why the code is bad). They know because they can identify an issue exactly: it takes 15+ minutes to recconect in that game, and about 15 seconds in similar games. (The game is in alpha currently, of course)

You have to take every case on its own merit, and I find it useful to consider how much detail the complaint/advise goes into. If they can be specific and keep on point, you can make something of it. Otherwise, its normally someone talking out their behind without realizing it.

It's the "I could do that" syndrome that inhabits most consumers (I include myself in that) when they're ignorant on the field they're giving their opinion about.
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quisseh
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« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2014, 05:26:55 PM »

edit : maybe I'm bitching.

You might be bitching, but you have a point. Wink People love to shove as much "expert advice" down your throat as they can possibly fit. It makes them feel important.

This discussion reminded me of a quote from an excellent article I read a few months ago, entitled "How to Be an Indie Game Developer":

Quote
Finally, a word of warning. There is something about game design which makes people believe that they can do it, even if they have never done it before. I’m not precisely sure what quality it has which makes it appear so easy: it is incredibly difficult.

And he's right. I can't quite put my finger on what makes people think it's so easy. Is it because they don't take games seriously as an art medium? Is it because the act of playing games is so ubiquitous and accessible? I don't know. Like OttselKnight said, writing suffers from the same problem because everyone has written or read at some point in the past. But with games, it's even more ridiculous; games have a lot more going on. In addition to writing, we have music, illustration, programming, design, and other fields I'm not thinking of. It takes some serious credentials to critique games with an "expert opinion."
« Last Edit: September 15, 2014, 05:51:18 PM by quisseh » Logged
Leon Fook
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« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2014, 07:22:23 AM »

just don't talk with them in this topic. it's not worth explaining to them, because if someone think they know "business" and "how the world works", they will refuse to listen. idea guy should stay as idea guy.
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« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2014, 07:27:54 AM »

Reminds me of some really dumb discussions with people about different aspects of "game design" with golden moments like "You cant do a game with a pregnant woman, it will be pretty damn boring." or "Looting other peoples houses is soooo unrealistic, dont do that". Or "What? A horrorgame in an other enviroment than Hospitals, psychiatries or bloody and rusty silent hill worlds? Dont even try!"

I'm so sad sometimes, reading this stuff, even if you didnt even started to make a real concept around the idea, but other people know exactly that the result will not worth playing or even making.

But to be honest, don't asking those people about your stuff is an easy way to avoid those comments. Just search people who are motivated and creative and can give you feedback about improving the stuff you already made!
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Richard Kain
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« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2014, 09:20:33 AM »

I can plumb like a plumber plumbs. But I'm handy that way, certainly can't expect that from everyone.

As to everyone seeming to be a game "expert," here's a little hint...

NO ONE is a game "expert."

Those guys who are legends in the game development scene, like Will Wright and Sid Meier, even they aren't game experts. The are good, even great game developers, but they aren't experts.

The game industry is so new, and so chaotic, that no one can legitimately claim to be an expert in it. And no one can accurately predict how this industry is going to react and change in the future. The vast majority of big gaming successes over the past decade have come out of nowhere, and surprised everyone. I have one of the best track records I know of for predicting industry trends, and even I can't see everything.

Who knew that the Wii would perform as it did, or the DS? Who could have told you that Minecraft would grow into the phenomenon it has become? And who has any real idea what is going to grow out of Occulus Rift?

When people presume to offer advice on what you should do with game design, all they're doing is looking at the industry as-is and stating the obvious. They are telling you that the sky is blue. And in an industry this dynamic, such advice is useless. When I went to GDC in 2010, it was all about Zynga and metrics. Now Zynga is struggling to stay alive, and metrics are a given, not a revolution.

Do you want to chase trends that may already be on the way out? Or do you want to define what the game industry is going to become? Flex your imagination and make what you want to make. That's my "expert" advice.
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Netsu
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« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2014, 01:19:49 AM »

It's not about trends and the industry, it's about all the little design decisions that can make or break a game. You don't need to predict the future to know that a certain control scheme is unintuitive or clunky or that a certain enemy or puzzle is frustrating and unfair. All you need is experience and a holistic view of the game.

If someone tells you things like 'oh you should make a mobile game instead' then he's an idiot of another caliber. That's like telling Woody Allen or whoever he should write super hero movies because those sell best.
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Sik
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« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2014, 03:10:34 AM »

Well, the game industry is easily a lifetime long by now, so there should be experts by this point, really.

Yeah, it's a young industry, but are other industries any less volatile, really? I mean, even the food industry is kind of volatile with game changer technologies appearing every often, and harvesting food is something we have been doing since like forever (in fact, it's probably even more volatile now due to the faster progress of technology).
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« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2014, 05:34:05 AM »

*snip* That's like telling Woody Allen or whoever he should write super hero movies because those sell best.

If Woody Allen wrote a super hero movie, it couldn't be any worse than Daredevil...
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Alevice
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« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2014, 08:22:25 AM »

Im intrigued as to what a woody  allen superhero movie would entail.
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« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2014, 08:23:52 AM »

I think people have a tough time separating a subjective stance and an objective one, and have a tough time understanding that their opinion doesn't necessarily reflect an industry. I also think that people want to feel useful through the path of lease resistance, which makes offering "expert advise" easy since it doesn't require more than just talking at that moment. It doesn't even require that much thinking.

What bothers me is that a lot of people get frustrated when they're called out on it, when asked about facts, why they think that. I try to break down a situation like that by making them realize that perhaps they don't quite know as much as they think, or don't understand the current situation as well as they think.
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« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2014, 08:42:16 AM »

As you get older you begin to see meaning in old adages; "1% inspiration, 99% perspiration" rings so true, after the initial good idea you need to really work at it before it becomes a reality, during which you must battle the urge to follow other good ideas or the advice of backseat coders (unless you're pair programming of course!)
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