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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGeneralEveryone knows how to make games better than you do.
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rj
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« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2014, 12:55:56 AM »

everyone does know how to make games better than me
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« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2014, 08:02:15 PM »

I think it's the result of many people loving to play games, but the barrier of entry to making them is actually rather high. As a result, people say precisely what they'd like, because they think it's something everybody likes.

I've heard a similar think from a politician: Everyone seems to think how easy it is to satisfy everyone, if half the advice they receive is true.
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RJAG
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« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2014, 04:41:22 AM »

I'd like to throw in my two cents, especially when so many here are taking an anti-commoner, pro-developer stance.

Although I won't disagree with the anti-commoner stances, I am a bit of the side of anti-developer (so somewhere in the middle between saying "It is so easy!" and "It is so hard!"

Before I got into game development, programming, and game art many years ago, I read a lot online. Things ranging from 12 year olds declaring they will make the next WoW in a month (and the people who brutally assault that kid's psyche), to hardened veteran programmers crying over how hard life is (while making excuses for why they are in a perpetual alpha year after year).


From what I read, people made game development out to be this task that is so difficult, only super-hero level people succeed. Programming is impossible, Unity is a requirement, blah blah blah.

I get involved, I become a real programmer, I learn about game art and create three praised styles of 2D, and I begin working on my game after having worked on another game in pretty much every engine, framework, and library known to man. By the time I am fully competent to do as I please, I begin development of a game in Unity, then took the same project to my own engine to see the difference and learn more about game programming. Now I have enough experience to make informed decisions, and I don't get some developer's whine.

As a newbie to novice, game development and programming (in general) is an overwhelming topic. It is full of dread, filled with all kinds of doubt, and makes you want to cave in your own skull to eliminate the brain.

However, once past novice, and once you have experience making games, the dread is gone and the programming is easy. You take a more pragmatic and realistic approach to viewing things, unlike the 12 year old re-create AAA title dreamers, but surprisingly very unlike a lot of people who say they are developers, and even unlike some people who ARE developers.


Some of the things I was told are so hard by professionals, are really easy and simple. Some of the "time consuming" aspects are not time consuming at all. At least not for me. The things that I always heard were hard, are not hard. The things no one talked about, are what seem hard. My mind begs to question the skills or experience of some (even popular) indie developers.

TLDR: The reality doesn't match either side's perspective of "Making games is so easy!" to "Making games is so hard!". I honestly don't understand what I am missing to be unable to relate to some of the whinier developers. Perhaps unlike them I am missing incompetence, but also perhaps I am just not there yet- and will have a rude awakening soon enough. Who knows...but if it is anything like the rest of my life...I will find both sides of the extremes to be 'full on retard', unlike many people who hail the extreme side of pro-developer, giving legitimacy to their whine.

Sometimes, I side with the newbie gamer too. Even when that means heresy like saying "Nah, it really is easy. They have no excuse."


Most important note: LEARNING to make video games IS extremely hard. No doubt about that. But after you have learned enough, it isn't like they say. I assume this has a lot to deal with all the drama posted in blogs or emotional dev rants on forums.
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« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2014, 04:47:46 AM »

I think it's the result of many people loving to play games, but the barrier of entry to making them is actually rather high. As a result, people say precisely what they'd like, because they think it's something everybody likes.

I've heard a similar think from a politician: Everyone seems to think how easy it is to satisfy everyone, if half the advice they receive is true.

Great post.

There are a lot of cognitive biases which encourage this type of thinking, and the politician example was literally perfect.

Some politicians are so wrapped up in a bubble, that they literally do not understand the plight of other groups of people. (For example, the ignorant republican politicians who literally believe in some of the most insane things. They are not purposefully being evil, they are just so stupid they think they are doing good. Unlike the politicians who are smart and KNOWINGLY support evil. A good specific example would be 'The Senate Rape Caucasus". That has to be a mix of evil people and just plain stupid people.)

Also, so true that the barrier to entry is so high as well. When someone doesn't know programmer or art, it can take years just to learn that- then having to learn other aspects of game development too can be overwhelming for newbies.


Ignorance + Cognitive Bias = "Durrrrr!"
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Netsu
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« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2014, 05:41:34 AM »

Of course making A GAME is pretty easy, there are tutorials out there that have you make a simple game in a matter of hours even if you have no previous knowledge.

Thing is you need much, much more to make a GOOD game. And I am not talking about skills like programming, texturing or drawing. You need a deeper understanding, or at least a good intuition, of what makes a game 'good' and what makes a game 'bad'.
Most people seem to think that to have this understanding it is enough that you play a lot of games, but that is not true. When playing a game you might think a certain decision would help it ('oh man I wish there were free respecs in this game!') when in reality it might invalidate other aspects of the game and hurt it in general.

This is why those 'idea experts' are sometimes so hard to listen to, people think everyone could do game design. 'I know what I like in games, therefore I know how to make a game poeple would like'. But it's not about the individual pieces that you put into a game to make it 'more awesome'. It's about fitting all the pieces together to create a consistent whole.
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rj
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« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2014, 06:37:43 AM »

Of course making A GAME is pretty easy, there are tutorials out there that have you make a simple game in a matter of hours even if you have no previous knowledge.

Thing is you need much, much more to make a GOOD game. And I am not talking about skills like programming, texturing or drawing. You need a deeper understanding, or at least a good intuition, of what makes a game 'good' and what makes a game 'bad'.
Most people seem to think that to have this understanding it is enough that you play a lot of games, but that is not true. When playing a game you might think a certain decision would help it ('oh man I wish there were free respecs in this game!') when in reality it might invalidate other aspects of the game and hurt it in general.

This is why those 'idea experts' are sometimes so hard to listen to, people think everyone could do game design. 'I know what I like in games, therefore I know how to make a game poeple would like'. But it's not about the individual pieces that you put into a game to make it 'more awesome'. It's about fitting all the pieces together to create a consistent whole.

yeah learning how mechanics work + relate to one another is kind of a weird skill that isn't developed as organically as most people would like i think
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« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2014, 06:38:51 AM »

Opeople think everyone could do game design. 'I know what I like in games, therefore I know how to make a game poeple would like'.

It's really funny at times when my 6yo suggests changes to a game I work on. Really crazy ideas that will never work. Maybe I should try some of them just to see how far out it can go. Maybe it will even work one day to my surprise.

But more importantly, a thing about games is that on a high level whatever someone likes is the perfect game they should make, IF you go into it to make a great game rather than to make lots of money. Obviously to make money you need the skill and experience and marketing people (or luck) to go after Candy Crush Whatever. But if you want your dream game all you need, on a higher level (repeating myself!), is to know what games you like, so the non-developers are correct.

I don't think the big problem is annoying normal people having ideas. The problem is programmers (like me!) or graphics artists that think being able to get some sprites or physics engine rolling or pretty animations in Flash means we have even slightly more skill in figuring out how to design the game well. At least the annoying non-programmers will not waste anyone's time with making crappy (if beautiful) games that look really good in a devlog but then when you play they are just dull. Way too much of that.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2014, 06:46:39 AM by pelle » Logged
rj
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« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2014, 06:42:35 AM »

It's really funny at times when my 6yo suggests changes to a game I work on. Really crazy ideas that will never work. Maybe I should try some of them just to see how far out it can go. Maybe it will even work one day to my surprise.

kids honestly have the best ideas imo; they may not fit standard 'good design' protocol for things but they tend to reveal an angle on something you'd never have considered.

kids are awesome
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« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2014, 07:23:20 AM »

Of course making A GAME is pretty easy, there are tutorials out there that have you make a simple game in a matter of hours even if you have no previous knowledge.

Thing is you need much, much more to make a GOOD game. And I am not talking about skills like programming, texturing or drawing. You need a deeper understanding, or at least a good intuition, of what makes a game 'good' and what makes a game 'bad'.
Most people seem to think that to have this understanding it is enough that you play a lot of games, but that is not true. When playing a game you might think a certain decision would help it ('oh man I wish there were free respecs in this game!') when in reality it might invalidate other aspects of the game and hurt it in general.

This is why those 'idea experts' are sometimes so hard to listen to, people think everyone could do game design. 'I know what I like in games, therefore I know how to make a game poeple would like'. But it's not about the individual pieces that you put into a game to make it 'more awesome'. It's about fitting all the pieces together to create a consistent whole.

Good post.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2014, 08:05:19 AM by RJAG » Logged
RJAG
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« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2014, 08:06:19 AM »

It's really funny at times when my 6yo suggests changes to a game I work on. Really crazy ideas that will never work. Maybe I should try some of them just to see how far out it can go. Maybe it will even work one day to my surprise.

kids honestly have the best ideas imo; they may not fit standard 'good design' protocol for things but they tend to reveal an angle on something you'd never have considered.

kids are awesome

very true.

More often than not, kids say smarter things than adults who say some of the dumbest things imaginable.
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« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2014, 04:40:42 PM »

I think your game needs an open world with a nonlinear choose-your-own narrative.

Your Pong paddle should be able to STOP playing pong, write its own rules, and have other Pong paddles react to that and form their own opinions.
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rj
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« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2014, 06:58:41 PM »

Your Pong paddle should be able to STOP playing pong, write its own rules, and have other Pong paddles react to that and form their own opinions.

sounds legitimately cool actually, someone figure it out make that, that's actually a good idea
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« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2014, 02:08:02 PM »

Existential Crisis Pong.
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« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2014, 04:11:13 PM »

I'm very glad to be here with you tonight, I'll be able to talk to you about some things...that I know a great deal about. Everyone knows that your games are fucked up. And everyone knows that my games are fucked up. But, does everyone know that your games are more fucked up than mine? Well, I know that. And you know that. But our purpose is to tell everyone that. Take for instance, the time you went to a meetup, to make a jam game. You had your development environment, an idea, art, sound, coffee, everything was set. But you had to call me to come turn on the computer for you. You didn't know where or how. That is one instance of how fucked up you are.

A second instance of how fucked up you are: you was going to make you a devlog. Well you went in there, put some screenshots in, put in some gifs. Put in a link to your Kickstarter. Got your game up on Greenlight. Everything was fine - except for one thing. You had to me call in there... to show you how your main character should look.

Now a third instance of the way you're fucked up. You got dressed, ready to go to the IGF. Everything was fine - got outside, got in your car.Key in the ignition. Except for one thing. You had to call me to come show you.
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