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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperPlaytestingHellhound (prototype game)
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Tcrakman
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« on: September 15, 2014, 05:07:52 PM »




Hi! i´ve been making this game prototype for some time now.
Inspired by games like zelda, Metroid, Demon´s crest, Dust: an elysian tale, this prototype was mostly made to show movement and combat mechanics of a game with metroidvania elements i will be developing in the future (will make a devlog of it).


About the prorotype:
-Hellhound is a 2D fast action game. To better explain here´s a video showing gameplay



-Tutorial level teaches you the basics and gives you a collecting challenge...
-The goal in the arenas is to defeat all enemies, the chronometer stops when the enemy counter reaches 0 showing your completion time in that arena.

As my first game im aware there may be some mistakes im making and haven´t noticed yet so i would like to receive feedback about the gameplay mainly. Is it too fast? is there something you dont like? did you had problems understanding something in the tutorial? character movement feels strange? say everything you think could be better.
Finally, the game still has some bugs that im fixing but i would like to know if you find something anyway,
there could be things i haven´t noticed yet.





You can play it here:
http://tcrakman.itch.io/hellhound?secret=99KZq8%2bIBY%2bAKc6UKaDeuT7maZs%3d


I hope you have fun!

« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 11:09:50 PM by Tcrakman » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2014, 07:00:51 PM »

Well, I kind of like what you seem to be going for and the creature/character designs are pretty nice.

I really don't like how it feels to play, though. Most of that is personal preference, like how I hate automated actions in games like this. If I hold the jump button an instant too long, I double-jump. If I keep holding it, I basically bounce. If I charge up an attack, I feel like I should be able to choose when it's used.

There are little bits of weirdness like the climbing animation extending above the ledge you climbed up to, and the final stomp on a weak floor still causing you to float in mid-air a moment. Those sorts of things are small, though, and could just use a bit of polish. Having a cursor on the menu but controlling it with the keyboard was really strange too. I'm not sure why you didn't just have mouse control or keyboard control and instead chose a weird hybrid.

I also found a bunch of typos in the tutorial, so you may want to check that out (ex. lounge instead of lunge).

Also in the tutorial, when I got to the enemy they just zoomed away and started randomly climbing walls instead of attacking me so I couldn't end the tutorial.

My only major issue with the game is how combat feels. I get stunlocked and pushed around far too easily, while when I go to attack enemies I move right through them. They seem to have a huge advantage in that regard. My attacks also feel a bit delayed (except maybe the jump kick), so I just have enemies pounding on me and I can't do much to hit them back. I'm sure I could dodge around, but with a swarm of enemies around me I'm not sure how I can stop and actually fight back. Maybe there are too many enemies at the start, but even with only one or two I think the combat would still feel awkward. Luckily, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't take much to improve it (or maybe other people will enjoy it more than me and you won't feel the need to change it at all).

I like the games you've been inspired by, and I like the style of this one. I think it could turn out well.
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« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2014, 08:42:27 PM »

I really messed up with that "lounge" part haha gonna change that and check the other advices/dialogues.

Thank you for all the awesome advice!

About the cursor in the menu i thought about the player liking it more to control everything from the keyboard and not have to change hands from mouse to keyboard so i went by that solution, but now i see that "solution" was weirder than anything. Changing that!

The jumps are still really buggy. As you said, holding the jump button will trigger automatically the doublejump once the jump animation its done, im thinking of a fix to that.

The charge attack, im making it so it instantly attacks the time you press the button.

The small enemies attack you by rolling or by a two hit combo (if they´re very close to you). They automatically climb a wall if they hit it while rolling. Also, on low health, they will roll aimlessly making them hard to reach (maybe that is a bad idea?).

About the combat in general, its something its been in my mind since i finished the mechanics. The character attacking faster is something im making(and maybe extend his attacks hitboxes), but things like enemies and automatic climbing (fast climbing) are something i have my doubts. I went by making a game that forces you to constantly move and not to stay too much in a single place (even climbing in walls enemies can still reach you), but its a thing i need to keep testing, and to show constantly to other people to make it better.
 
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« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2014, 12:42:50 AM »

About the cursor in the menu i thought about the player liking it more to control everything from the keyboard and not have to change hands from mouse to keyboard so i went by that solution, but now i see that "solution" was weirder than anything. Changing that!

Using the keyboard for everything is pretty common, but usually it would just change which menu item is selected, without requiring a cursor.

Quote
The charge attack, im making it so it instantly attacks the time you press the button.

Not when you release it?

Quote
Also, on low health, they will roll aimlessly making them hard to reach (maybe that is a bad idea?).

...

I went by making a game that forces you to constantly move and not to stay too much in a single place (even climbing in walls enemies can still reach you), but its a thing i need to keep testing, and to show constantly to other people to make it better.

I think this may be the root cause of my main issue. You've made a game where the enemies are fast and maneuverable and where the player has to keep moving, except that the player doesn't feel equipped to handle those sorts of enemies. I didn't feel like I was playing someone agile, and my attacks mostly required me to stand still (I realize the attacks themselves move me, but that just makes it feel like I have less control). I'd say that either the player character needs to be more agile or the enemies need to be adjusted a bit.

Looking at the video you linked to, it looks nothing like how things went for me. When I used my basic attack, I often went right through enemies without hitting them and those flying enemies seemed to have very small collision boxes. Also, I notice that you lose a lot of health in that video. I'd recommend taking that into consideration and thinking about how much worse someone who has never played the game before will do in the same situations.
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« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2014, 11:13:43 PM »

First off all, thanks again for the feedback!

Now for this update i must say last week was development crazy! many things have changed since the first version.
Heres a list of them:

-Menu controls simplified (WS - scroll menu    JK SPACE or ENTER - select).
-Tutorial level is easier than before (it was really too hard back then).
-Fixed a lot of collision boxes, now its easier to give hits.
-Added effects to claw attacks.
-Holding the jump button no longer doublejumps until you hit it again.
-Big enemies are easier than before (less health, and less damage).
-Quick claw now attacks instantly on button press (no need to charge it if you have to wait for a cooldown right?).
-Energy meter bar regenerates faster (needed for Quick claw).
-Fixed a bug in walls that caused the player to climb them, even if he was attacking.
-Game file is now hosted in a suitable site.

-Finally, im adding a cool new feature:



(Its still a little buggy but, i couldn´t leave those big enemies free from the grab attack).

Thanks.
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« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2014, 07:18:12 AM »

The controls feel a lot better to me now.

-I played the tutorial and the enemy didn't zoom away this time so I got to kill it. Then nothing happened. The tutorial never ended and I couldn't see anything left to do. Later, I glanced at the text below the game and realized I might have to collect everything. That wasn't clear in-game (and I also don't think it's particularly fun).

-Playing the first arena, I got swarmed by three or four flying enemies as I was climbing. They basically froze me in place in the air and hit me until I died. Is there a way out of that?

-It often feels like the quick claw isn't working because if you get hit right after pressing the button it gets cancelled. What seems like it should be a great way to push back a horde of enemies becomes almost completely useless in those situations.

-I think it would be nice if enemies didn't all magically know where I am from the start.

-Is there any point to the basic attack? It's so incredibly weak (felt like maybe 20 hits were needed to kill the basic rolling/spinning enemy) that I don't really know why it exists. It seems I'm better off using the other attacks even if they're slower.

-Are there any invincibility frames in the game? It seems like I get hurt no matter what I'm doing, so when I get swarmed by things I die while attacking them.

I liked it a lot more than last time. It's coming along pretty well.
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« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2014, 04:45:33 PM »

Glad the controls feel now more responsive!
Im curious about how far you get in the tutorial, to tell the truth maybe i did it a little too long and shouldn´t be called tutorial level (in fact im assuming you still dont get to the part with the flying enemies or the big enemy).

I added arrow symbols in the first part of the tutorial, so the player is sure where to go next.

Apologies about the enemies (only in the tutorial), there was a bug that made them sometimes follow you without you getting close to them, i fixed that.

I tweakened a bit the quickclaw so the player only gets hits if he´s attacked in the back by the small enemies (and also reduced this enemy slashes hitboxes).

Normal attacks are more powerful now.

Zoomed out a bit the camera in the tutorial, so the player gets a better view of its surroundings.


This was just a quick update. I will keep tweaking and playing with the bit things like attack speed, damage output and characters in general, this is, until i feel the game its ready for more content.

Thanks again!
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« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2014, 08:12:00 PM »

Im curious about how far you get in the tutorial, to tell the truth maybe i did it a little too long and shouldn´t be called tutorial level (in fact im assuming you still dont get to the part with the flying enemies or the big enemy).

When you said it was "a little too long" that made me confused because it had seemed really short, so I went back and tried it again. When I played before, I got to the room with the first enemy in it. It was a dead-end and the tutorial didn't finish, so I thought that there was nowhere to go and it was just a bug that the tutorial hadn't ended. I was pretty wrong, wasn't I. That tutorial level is insanely long.

Anyway, as a tutorial, I don't think it does a very good job of showing the player where to go through the actual design of the level (ie. you shouldn't need flashing arrows). As a level, though, I had a lot more fun with the first three areas of the tutorial than I did with the arenas. I feel like everything you need to teach the player could be in that first area and the rest could be considered actual levels.

Any time I have to fight more than two or three enemies at a time, the combat gets really irritating. It's too easy to get stun-locked and the dodge doesn't let me jump through enemies, so it's useless once I've been swarmed. Stun-locking just feels unfair and once it happens my health gets taken down pretty quickly. Being able to escape those situations by dodging through the swarm would help a lot, I think.

I didn't think it was clear that I had to kill all enemies to make the arrows appear. I just had to guess that that was the case, based on experience with other games. Like I said, though, I think levels should have a natural flow to them. Purposely leading the player to dead-end after dead-end is, especially in a tutorial, pretty strange. I know you have health globes to show other routes, but they came across to me as "extras" or routes to secrets that I didn't care about so I didn't follow them at first.

The third or fourth part of the tutorial has more enemies and very little health in it. I made it pretty far, died and didn't want to go through it all again because of all the tedious and fairly unpredictable combat with swarms. Up until that point, though, I was enjoying the tutorial levels quite a bit.
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« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2014, 09:29:55 PM »

Thanks again for your feedback!

Tutorial level can be better and more fluid, thats true. I will make it so its obvious the way the player should go (everything while also putting more life globes through the level).

I made the tutorial long so you can interact with all forms of enemies, and also to try and get that sidequest with the 8 spheres. Again i agree its too long and it shouldn´t be called a tutorial level haha (more like level 1 or so).

Well, it seems the major problem is still about combat and getting cramped with enemies. Maybe its just me but dodging out of swarms is pretty easy (and thats the way of getting out of it) but i will not say that yet until i get more feedback.

I have many ideas about gettin combat and enemies feel more comfortable to play with, like, character recovering faster from knockbacks, enemies being pushed farther from character attacks, enemies in arenas attacking you only if you´re really close to them, and some other things.

I´ll keep tweaking and playing with those things while also gettin as much feedback as i can, gotta find the right spot!



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« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2014, 10:13:03 PM »

Maybe its just me but dodging out of swarms is pretty easy (and thats the way of getting out of it) but i will not say that yet until i get more feedback.

I was in a swarm being hit from all sides and I hit the button to dodge left. It did nothing at all. I just kept getting hit. I think the way I ended up escaping was that I jumped and used the ground pound, but by then I'd already been hurt a lot.

I just went back and tested it some more. If you only have one enemy to get through and hit the dodge button at a fairly specific time, then it's fine. Trying to dodge past more enemies just leaves you getting hit in between, or hit a bunch of times while you're trying to dodge (a few times, I pressed the button about six times and only dodged once).

Anyway, I'm curious what you're going with the arena style of level. This gameplay works really well with a normal area-after-area structure. Do you think you'll be making more of those too?
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« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2014, 11:17:24 PM »

Yep! i will be making some more levels, apart from other new things, nothing too complicated though.

I put myself in the same situation you get, enemies on all sides.
To escape from that i pressed the dodge button and A or D for more speed. Example: Pressing Q + A fast dodge left (also you can hold the dodge button and A or D in the direction you want to face, no need to press them at the right time after a knockback, just hold those buttons).

A more effective way i tried is to jump/doublejump after getting a knockback and fast dodge to a safe direction. That way you pass above enemies heads without getting through them.

Are you still having problems with the basic attack combo? it still makes the char pass through enemies too much?
I must ask also if there have been any problems related to performance (theres a nasty bug i explain below the game screen).

Im working with the knockback right now (will make the character get an invincibility fraction time after getting hit).

I will update when i have it worked out.
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« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2014, 11:34:34 PM »

I put myself in the same situation you get, enemies on all sides.
To escape from that i pressed the dodge button and A or D for more speed.

Really? I never would've considered trying that. While pressing those keys together makes sense for climbing quickly, it seems a little awkward to use in combat.

Quote
A more effective way i tried is to jump/doublejump after getting a knockback and fast dodge to a safe direction. That way you pass above enemies heads without getting through them.

I usually seem to get hit at least two or three times while doing that sort of thing. I'm pretty curious how other people are doing. I wonder if anyone else will comment here.

Quote
Are you still having problems with the basic attack combo?

I still don't like holding the key like that, but otherwise it seems all right I guess. I try not to use it that much except when fighting a single enemy or to finish off someone, because I just get destroyed if I use it in big groups.

One issue I've noticed is that sometimes I go to turn around and then use the basic attack, but the character doesn't turn before attacking and so he ends up temporarily locked in an animation while facing the wrong way with an enemy behind him. It doesn't happen often, but I've encountered that issue at least two or three times.

Quote
I must ask also if there have been any problems related to performance

I haven't noticed any performance issues at all.
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« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2014, 08:12:28 PM »

I played the game yesterday, but was a bit tired and did not comment then. So, first, I really like what you do. Movements were relatively fluid, animation is good, and you are adding even more fun to the game. This is great.

What I did not like is the overall jumpiness of the game. Add more inertia to the monsters and to the player, and it will be more fluid. At least this is what I would like to have in the game.

I also had difficulties fighting with the enemies. First of all, I did not get very far in the tutorial, because there was that electric charge on the ceiling, and it did not let me go farther. I will try the tutorial again. Hopefully, I will find what to do there.. Regarding the dodge thing. What if you put the dodge keys to the right hand area? Say, to "H" and ";". You can keep Q and E, but add an alternative pair of keys on the right side to replicate functionality? Just to try if it works better. There was some awkwardness in the controls, probably in the way the key must be combined, but I could not pinpoint what I actually did not like. Well, controls are not bad, but something just does not feel right to me. Probably, I would like to have 4 directional movement keys for one hand, and the rest for the other hand.

I will try again and comment.

Btw, can I play with a gamepad? It would be really great, actually.
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« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2014, 11:08:01 PM »

All right, some good changes!
Sorry for this late reply, after receiving the last feedback i ve´been working and testing the game with new controls and other things.


Here is the update!

-The tutorial was worked again, now it should be more understandable where to go.

-The normal combo now pushes enemies in front of you so you can no longer pass them while attacking.

-Normal combo hitboxes tweaked again, those work like a damage barrier in front of you letting no enemy pass.
(this should be more easy to understand in game).

-If you get hit, you get an invinsibility fraction of time to recover.

-Dodging no longer needs the press of a movement button to work fast.

-Dodge against walls (you no longer have to press dodge and a movement button to fast climb).

-Added difficulty in arenas: More than a feature is something i made to test the difficulty regarding enemies
following you no matter where you are.

-fixed a couple of bugs (theres still a bug that could happen. Is the character getting out of the stages.
i haven´t tested too much the new controls so maybe it could happen in certain parts).


...What if you put the dodge keys to the right hand area?

Yep! i added them  Smiley

I (dodge left).
O (dodge right).

Btw, can I play with a gamepad? It would be really great, actually.

I would really love to have gamepad functionality (I imagine dodging with the bumpers would be really cool and would fit awesome with the game mechanics).
Unfortunately i haven´t found a way to implement gamepads with Flash, and, has i ve´been reading, its impossible to do with actionscript 2 (what im working with).
Once i start making the game in an actual engine you can be sure i will implement gamepads!



Thanks again for all the feedback, im glad you like the animation so far!

Also just as a final line i made a devlog, but will keep updating here as well.
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« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2014, 07:34:59 PM »

Saw the screenshots and embedded videos and I was instantly reminded of Data East's Werewolf game for the NES mixed with a little Altered Beast, so I decided to give it a go. Fired up the Tutorial stage for a bit, but it took a while to load so I browsed a bit.

When I returned to the game, I fell through a very long stretch of ground, and ultimately this happened:



I did manage to fight one opponent that also got stuck in the ground somehow. Started panicking when it went after me with a buzzsaw cartwheel attack, but I backed off and used the L move to stun it, then a couple K swipes (saw that you could combo in this game--pretty cool) to finish it for good. That was when I ran into the screen above and could not continue further.

I reloaded the browser tab and chose "First Arena" on Normal, but once the game loaded up I had a few strange events happen:

The camera was zoomed all the way out and my character was stuck several meters in the floor. After running a few steps to the right I warped into a black background with no graphics and fell all the way down until I hit a floor composed entirely of gray blocks (the default collision objects?). I was walled in and tried to get back up using doublejump and wall climb, but when I got partway up the long stretch of gray wall I warped into what I assume to be Arena 1 and the camera returned to normal.

I tried fighting with enemies and used the grapple attack on the flyers. I was unsure if I was actually doing any damage, but eventually they fluttered all the way down after a few more grapples and exploded underfoot, causing half of my lifebar to vanish in one hit.

The movement seems OK, but my one criticism is how the character's movement, especially while climbing, feels floaty and inconsistent:

  • Perhaps you should try using a separate jump button instead of having to rely on Up (W) to leap, since my default reaction was to climb walls like in a Contra or Megaman game, and since Up is used both to jump and climb it can get pretty tricky trying to do wall-to-wall jumping in certain sections because you end up double tapping the Up key.

  • Additionally, climbing onto the top of a narrow platform like the vertical columns in Arena 1 results in my character running too quickly off the opposite edge. From what I have read in this thread it seems some people have complained about how slow the character is and speeding up the movement was your response. Another possible solution is to implement double tapping in order to dash (think 90s beat 'em ups, Mega Man X's dash or Richter Belmont's run move), while normally pressing Left or Right would cause you to walk normally.


I think the grab attack is a highly interesting mechanic and reminds me a lot of Gunstar Heroes. The fact you could reset your doublejump with it can lead up to some interesting level designs--think Castlevania Circle of the Moon's freezable enemy platforms or the flying enemies you could divekick onto.

All in all I think you've chosen a genre with an interesting history, and it shows in your game's combat style. It just needs some more balancing and tweaking to get the flow of action correct. Keep it up!
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« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2014, 12:36:14 AM »

It seems you found that nasty bug i haven´t found yet, that causes you to warp between locations when first loading the browser and chosing an option from the menu. My apologies, im thinking on a solution to it.
On a note, if that happens you can press backspace to return to menu after all the warping is done, that way it should be fixed for good.

climbing onto the top of a narrow platform like the vertical columns in Arena 1 results in my character running too quickly off the opposite edge.

Im removing those pillars, they´re no good.

From what I have read in this thread it seems some people have complained about how slow the character is and speeding up the movement was your response. Another possible solution is to implement double tapping in order to dash (think 90s beat 'em ups, Mega Man X's dash or Richter Belmont's run move), while normally pressing Left or Right would cause you to walk normally.

Mmm i thought of that same option but, since dodging is an ability you will use frequently i decided to give it its own button, rather than pressing twice another button. Pressing twice could result in character not dodging in time or even not doing it at all at times because of a false press.

Perhaps you should try using a separate jump button instead of having to rely on Up (W) to leap, since my default reaction was to climb walls like in a Contra or Megaman game, and since Up is used both to jump and climb it can get pretty tricky trying to do wall-to-wall jumping in certain sections because you end up double tapping the Up key.

Will think of another way to make these interactions feel more solid (i think one of the problems could be button mapping though, Will test the game live with a few people to see how they react to this situation).


I think the grab attack is a highly interesting mechanic and reminds me a lot of Gunstar Heroes. The fact you could reset your doublejump with it can lead up to some interesting level designs--think Castlevania Circle of the Moon's freezable enemy platforms or the flying enemies you could divekick onto.

I still need to play that awesome game!
Yep! that doublejump reset is a feature i made at the last stages, i think also it could lead to future fun levels!
Also im glad you like the grab mechanics, but maybe i didn´t explained well its functions, i put them below:

Info about grab (gotta make it more understandable in tutorial!):
The grab attack does different actions depending on the enemy type you´re attacking. For current enemies these are their actions:

-Rolling enemies:
Grabbing them causes to instantly throw the enemy towards, rolling through everything in its way.

-Flying enemies:
Grabbing a flying enemy lets you control it. You can guide it and press L to make it divebomb into enemies below (beware of its explosion though).

-Big enemies:
You can grab them only if they´re weakened enough.


Thanks for testing out the prototype. I agree it needs more tweaking here and there so i will keep a while with this early version until it feels good enough.

Im also making adjustments so the game doesn´t feel too floaty, next update will tune this and other things!
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« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2014, 08:20:20 AM »

iss pretty neat  Gentleman
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« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2014, 03:40:09 PM »

Well, played it a bit and already found some problems:

First, its possible to go up a wall by pressing the dodge button, and you do it much faster. I don't know if it was intended to be this way, but then there would be no point in climbling using W. (maybe just precision)

There are too much buttons together, I really feel lost on my fingers, maybe on a joypad it would be much better.

The gravity feels a little off too, I think it should be stronger.

The difference of speed between dodge and jump are so high it feels weird to jump. I like the velocity you added to the dodge and attacks, but I think the normal jump and movement should be faster too.

The character animation is neat, but the falling animation specifically should have at least a little bit of motion.
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