next »

[Mittens]

no one really ripped off the freeform 3d platforming of sm64.

Such a shame. I wish there were more.

I'm always thinking this about Shadows of the Colossus.
If that game was released today it would still be totally unique, nobody would be able to point to another game like it, even after all these years

There's others like this, universally recognized as wonderful and novel yet nobody puts up the money to try and build on it.
Games like Halo and CoD on the other hand, they got cloned to pieces almost immediately. I guess it comes down to EASY it would be to copy something

It's difficult to think of a game harder to copy then sm64 or shadows

[TacoBell_Lord]

epic mickey is basically what would have happened if rare hired warren spector as lead designer on a new banjo kazooie game (gameplay-wise)

I remember when Epic Mickey was coming i thought it was going to be one of the next biggest things since Jesus in sandals; a Sandbox lite-RPG set in an alternative gritty Disney world, (like instead of going the Kingdom Hearts route they go with the Deus Ex flow) but it was watered down to seem cool for the tweens & kids, felt like Warren Spector held back

[gimymblert]

I'm totally vetoing any comparison of mario 64 vs sonic adventure 1. And i'm a big fan of teh two.
however tonyhawk ps1 I can see relation with mario 64.

Mario 64 ds don't even qualify and galaxy is not even on the map as the physics is completely off.

Mario 64 is two things:
1 - the control
2 - the progression

Banjo took the progression and run with it, but it is essentially a glorified simplified zelda  where everything is a dungeon and is secret based. In fact it's way better than modern zelda at secret.

The control there is nothing like this at all, tony hawk psx is the closest ever.

The platforming and controls works with the exploration, it's very parkour like in spirit, hence the comparison with tony hawk, you have that feeling of "i can pull it of" and going A to be B is a performance in the richer definition of the word (aka a show and a challenge).

But mario 64 is complex, think about it, it's a 3D puzzle hidden object game, you go through a complex thought pattern and cognitive state:

1 - you must make a map of the 3D level, aka figuring out how area are linked together
2 - with understanding the space you must then figure out where a star MIGHT be hidden
3 - once you figure it out you must figure out the path to go there
4 - Once the path is found out you must perform it and it takes skill

Stage 1 is observation memorization with some platforming challenge
stage 2 and 3 is two types of puzzle (figuring A and figuring B)
stage 4 is where the pure platforming start (go from A to B)

Don't forget that each stage is actually 7 puzzles folded onto each other, so any times you play you don't map space for a single hidden objects but 7. On top of this there is metroidvania elements, so even of you figure out part 1 to 3 you might need one of the hidden super power block that gives you a super cap that are basically key. So you might be in a situation where there is red herring for a while, distracting or obfuscating other puzzle.

The thing is the game give the player a lot of tools so there is a lot of way to traverse the 4 stages and many way to execute them, so many player can have totally different solution that match there skills.

The thing is the game makes you really think about 3D space in a thorough manner. You go from obvious A to B puzzle to complex layering of space and time. Layered space happen in world where you must think about the traversal of the same space through multiple mode, like water level, size of character, etc ... time happen with power up count down, breathing under water, mobile platform or playing with the tik tok tower speed of mecanism.

While all puzzles aren't that complex or all puzzle making the most of all the 3 stages, all star are base on element of surprise even if that surprise is light. The game never spell out an answer, even the obvious one, and even if things have a high degree of anticipation the game always add a twist, for example for the first star you go on top of the mountain but they didn't told you you had to fight a boss, you are making a race against the turtle and then she cheat! and when you jump on a small turtle you can actually surf on it! That makes mario 64 a more pure and compact "zelda" (on a tangent mario galaxy stole the epic feel of zelda and did it WAY better, while telling a complex story full of mystery (seriously look it up) and a better overworld structure).

This element of thinking mapping space, finding a path and execution is what makes it close to tony hawk psx, for the kinetic experience of the execution full of player expression. The kinectic experience is the main distinction with other 3D puzzle hidden objects, in banjo or even in 3D sonic's knuckle's part, it's all about finding and doing it the way the designer intended, they are more pure on the puzzle part, less expressive with less freedom to solution, less flair on the kinetic feeling of moving through the stage or thinking about space.

IN fact that makes Mario 64 one of the most purest 3D games with the kind of descents. It's also more of action adventure game in the vein of golden eye/perfect dark too (objective to figure out through traversing space and execution puzzle, especially if you factor the time challenge in Golden eye).

The distinction is to contrast to game with pure goal, which the base mario and those beyond sunshine, and even sunshine broke the premise with blue coin (see the 4 cognitive stage outline above) or more self contain puzzle (no side sun which reduce freedom and surprise) that betray the things establish with mario 64. If you think about typical mario it's purely about A to B traversal, with the occasional local puzzle to solve (special coin or obstacle to pass) that barely go beyond one screen. In fact galaxy can't be more true to this formula. Most game today, even open world game leave out the puzzle part almost entirely, space is full of marker, maps and other device to tell you what to do, how to do it and when to do it, all is left is execution (which isn't even left to figure out as a strategy), almost nothing is layered anymore (mostly inconsequential overlapping) and everything is self contain as a challenge.

I miss this kind of game, z

[s0]

Banjo took the progression and run with it, but it is essentially a glorified simplified zelda  where everything is a dungeon and is secret based. In fact it's way better than modern zelda at secret.

iirc mario 64 and ocarina of time were developed in parallel and had a lot of ideas passed back and forth between them (for instance SM64's hub world format was planned for zelda at first, including the entering magical paintings part). one of the devs (don't remember who) is on record saying that SM64 and OOT seemed like "the same thing" to him during development. it's in one of the iwata asks interviews that im too lazy to search for right now.

anyway my problem with banjo is this: it takes the least interesting part of sm64 (the 100 coin stars) puts it at the center of the progression. i replayed the first banjo kazooie this year and i had fun, but the game can get very OCD and tedious in a way that mario 64 never (there are more than 100 coins per level in mario 64).

[battlerager]

The games also share really similar instruments in the soundtrack and have been scored by the same composer!

[s0]

aren't the instruments just general midi sounds? btw, OOT is one of the best videogame soundtracks ever, esp if you consider that it was made with some really cheesy and ubiquitous instrument samples.

i also still love how the "ocarina" in OOT behaves like a guitar with 1 string rather than an actual ocarina <3

[battlerager]

aren't the instruments just general midi sounds? btw, OOT is one of the best videogame soundtracks ever, esp if you consider that it was made with some really cheesy and ubiquitous instrument samples.

i also still love how the "ocarina" in OOT behaves like a guitar with 1 string rather than an actual ocarina <3

Good question; I'm not sure about the technical side but especially string instruments and like "choir" stuff in the 2 games sound really really similar.

And yeah, I agree, it's really quite an accomplishment. Personally, I find the Majora's Mask soundtrack to be even more impressive with its leitmotif work and coherent, powerful mood, but they're essentially on the same level.

[gimymblert]

Also it is composed to be a nice piece of dynamic music, the main field theme is compose of 12 sequence that are randomly play one after all to break monotony. Nintendo sound design is always top notch

[Sik]

anyway my problem with banjo is this: it takes the least interesting part of sm64 (the 100 coin stars) puts it at the center of the progression. i replayed the first banjo kazooie this year and i had fun, but the game can get very OCD and tedious in a way that mario 64 never (there are more than 100 coins per level in mario 64).

It wouldn't be such a big problem if it wasn't because the notes get reset whenever you enter the level or lose a life. This means you need to collect every single one in a single run, or you're screwed. It's kind of annoying, really. (this would have required just 13 bytes per level to save, not sure if saves are large enough to hold that much data though)

[s0]

Banjo took the progression and run with it, but it is essentially a glorified simplified zelda  where everything is a dungeon and is secret based. In fact it's way better than modern zelda at secret.

i know this thread is a few months old, but im staying home sick at the moment and continuing my banjo playthrough and i have to say the progression model is actually much more complex than zelda's.

btw i found that the reason the game is so tedious are the last couple note doors. before that it's very reasonable with how much shit you're required to collect to progress i think. anyway after holding the game in low regard for years thanks to internet anti-"collectathon" propaganda im surprised how good it is actually replaying it.

[JWK5]

The thing about a collect-a-thon is that if it is paired up with some pretty decent gameplay it can be incredibly satisfying, especially if what you are collecting has an impact on the gameplay itself. Where collect-a-thons suck is when what you are collecting has no real point to it other than to be collected and takes no reasonable effort to find. Pair that up with sub-par gameplay and you have the kind of games a lot of people despise.

[gimymblert]

Banjo and mario (and even dk64 who isn't bad just overwhelming) where king but all the bad spawned imitator led the blame back to them for the trope. Also the later one (banjo tooie - dk64) where so difficult and complex to solve I think a sense of frustration and rejection where born of aimlessly going around trying to figure out what to do, especially in case of notes/bananas who are less signposted/landmarked than primary progression token and resort to "grind" all nook and cranny in hope of hopelessly stumbling on one, in a console where they have poor draw distance.

The worst being sunshine with its blue coins, it kill it.

But yeah, I have said for sometimes that mario is (was now they downgrade to 3D land/world/new/U) the new zelda, pointing at how mario 64 is a pure zelda than zelda (and basically all those games).

[s0]

i switched from banjo kazooie to tooie (which i never finished at the time due to dwindling interest in the n64) which is, so far, a better game. im legit impressed by how huge it is considering the platform its on and also by how "dark" it is in comparison to the 1st game. i dont remember that at all from when i originally played it. i mean im playing it in english now, back then i played it in german. maybe the german translation is a little more "family friendly" idk.

i also ordered donkey kong 64 which i didnt play back then for cheap because im in the mood for rare platformers at the moment so we'll see how it turns out.

[gimymblert]

Well you can see shade of conker bad fur days, the game start with character playing almost a gambling game and one main character blatantly cheat with the other one just sighing in disapproval while doing nothing (ie keep the money too).

I'm also amazed about how the low poly cutscene hold till today, they are legit beautiful.

[s0]

yes the game has aged v well graphically

[Sik]

It helps that the art style was designed around that polygon count. Heck, most stuff could be handled reasonably really, the biggest problem with games of that era was that most tried to make stuff that simply didn't fare well with that little detail (e.g. realistic humans).

Also this just got me look up the cutscenes and watch them =P

[Razz]

My biggest issue with Tooie is the framerate. It absolutely plummets later in the game.

I love the huge worlds though. Some people complain about that but I found it really engaging idk

[SirNiko]

I really enjoyed how the worlds interconnected in Banjo Tooie. It was a small touch, but I love it when games work in transitions between levels instead of just abrupt changes of scenery. On the other hand, it can be obnoxious if you tend to complete one world at a time, since you have to progress pretty far in the game before you can access the remaining jiggies in the early worlds.

I'm sure I've said it before, but Rocket: Robot on Wheels was possibly my favorite N64 collect-a-thon. It takes "Theme Park" game design literally, with each level framed as a different attraction with smaller attractions within. It has a physics engine and uses it liberally with vehicles that are fun to pilot even when you finish the tasks to earn all the "Stars". One level gives you a dune buggy on a little island, for example, and after you do the obligatory race you can just drive it around on the beach and try to roll it.

The only downside is it suffers from some poor polish, in the sense that you can sometimes find ways to sequence break levels by climbing walls the developers never intended you to climb (especially in the mine levle), and at least one part of the game features a climb up the inside of a tower with awful camera controls.

It was Sucker Punch's first video game, before they got popular with Sly Cooper.

[Praying Mantis]

I liked Tooie much more than Kazooie. It felt like the 'collectathon' element was almost completely gone, except for finding Jinjos, cheat pages, etc which have no impact on the core progression (you need to collect them all to 100% the game, but they're never required). Also reducing the notes in each level to 15 or however much it was helped.

I recently replayed Tooie and like others have said I think the art style holds up very well. Like Sik says, the game was designed around the low poly count which did wonders for the game's style. The only other game I can think of that does this is Rayman 2 (and 3, to an extent). It's clear they designed every single art asset around the graphical limitations and it looks gorgeous.

I think one of my favourite aspects of the Banjo games however is the dynamic music. Each world has a theme which changes instrumentation, pitch or tempo depending on whether you're indoors, underwater, doing a time trial, flying/high up, etc and it just works so well.

I'm sure I've said it before, but Rocket: Robot on Wheels was possibly my favorite N64 collect-a-thon.

Literally never heard of this game before. Reminds me of Glover for some reason. I know what games I'm playing tonight.

[Tanner]

yesss, rocket is awesome. i didn't have an n64 as a kid and i didn't play it until i heard about it in high school (maybe on retronauts? idk) so i'm not just nostalgic about it. that game owns.