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[valrus]

Attempted typology of gates:

• A key gate has a specific object/ability/event that opens it, but that object/ability/event doesn't have any other uses.  It's just a specific-shaped thing for a specific-shaped hole.  It doesn't have to be themed as a key or object that you carry; it might even include things like touching a switch that opens a door elsewhere, or entering some place, seeing a cutscene, and then finding that a bridge is now repaired.
• An ability gate has a specific ability or object that opens it, but that ability has other uses in gameplay besides just bypassing gates.
• A token gate is opened by some number of interchangeable objects, which usually don't have any other purpose.  It's like money: it doesn't matter which exact coin you use, or even what denominations you use, just that you have enough of it.  Trivial token gates require only one of the thing; nontrivial token gates require multiple.
• A challenge gate is protected by a skill challenge that you have to pass, often too difficult (but not necessarily impossible) for an early-game character.  If it's an enemy it's a beef gate.

A gate might look like another category (like Zelda has a lot of trivial token gates but themes these as keys and locks despite keys/locks not actually working like that), or it might fit into two (a boss might be a beef gate and an ability gate at once).

Some games rely almost entirely on one of these gate types, so we can say "Primarily token gates, definitely a collectathon" or "Primarily ability gates, definitely a metroidvania".  But Zelda games don't easily fit into any one such category because they use all four types.

[s0]

It's a bit different than pay for access (I don't remember collecthon that use this) as you lose the resource when unlocking access

banjo literally does this with the puzzle pieces

[gimymblert]

damn I forgot it

[s0]

anyway, i think i'll just concede this point for now. i still think my argument has merit but i can't find the right words to express what i mean atm. maybe im just being pedantic idk.

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i played halfway through the first dungeon of goemon 64 before the game froze on me. unfortunately it has manual saving with save points so i lost quite a bit of progress.

the game is pretty good (and VERY blatantly steals from zelda haha) but not great. the problem is that mechanically everything is slightly worse and less polished than its "inspiration". the combat isnt as satisfying, the level design isnt as tight etc. so it often just makes me want to play ocarina or majora (majora 3ds is coming out this week btw!) instead.

its charming tho and it has some very neat looking in engine cutscene for n64 game and a good oldschool jpop-esque soundtrack. the humor is hit and miss (some funny lines, a lot of throwaway anachronisms and fourth wall breaks that get old fast).

[gimymblert]

I thought goemon was out before oot

[gunswordfist]

i believe i heard goemon 64 predates ocarina of time.

i definitely want to give earthworm jim 3d a try now.

[s0]

yeah but it still obviously rips off zelda (only major difference is more platforming) and the n64 zeldas did it better. its less polished (and less GOOD ) than previous zeldas as well, so feels like a competent but inferior clone in some respects.

[SirNiko]

Successfully cloning Zelda in 3D (without just copying the 2D mechanics with 3D characters) before Zelda could clone Zelda in 3D was a pretty big accomplishment, though.

The first dungeon is relatively boring compared to the later ones - the first four dungeons get progressively better with more varied musical themes and clever design (with lots of visually distinct rooms). The third dungeon has a lot of exterior 'rooms' that give it an unusual flavor, and the fourth dungeon has a progressive musical theme that I wish other games would steal (it reminds me a lot of Sonic 3/Knuckles where Act 2 was a remix of Act 1, but done seamlessly). I also like the Goemon Impact boss fights, but that's a personal opinion others might not share.

Ocarina of Time did it better, but Goemon still did it great.

[s0]

but none of the shit goemon copies from zelda (like the entire progression model) is that hard to transfer to 3d.

i dont hate the game or anything tho, i have a lot of nostalgia for it. im also not saying its not good.

[gimymblert]

progression is the easiest thing to clone ever, it's easy to rationalize and replicate, most game do just that, Raise on nintendo game and some sega, control is key for me, I have a lot of intant disgust playing game with less tight control, I couldn't go into most game like jack and daxter and ratchet and clank because the control felt so "off" by a WIDE margin, they are just functional. I have the same problem with rare game that aren't GE and PD, moving isn't fun.

[Sik]

i heard earthworm jim 3d is terrible. is that still true?

Nah, that's heavily overstated, but don't go in expecting it to be as wacky as the previous entries (which together with playing completely different is probably what killed it). At least they did a good job recreating the graphics in 3D, given the extremely low polygon budget they had.

[gunswordfist]

i forgot to ask if you meant 2d zeldas, sil.

i will definitely try and give earthworm jim 3d a shot myself. i suspected it was overhated.

[s0]

progression is the easiest thing to clone ever, it's easy to rationalize and replicate, most game do just that, Raise on nintendo game and some sega, control is key for me, I have a lot of intant disgust playing game with less tight control, I couldn't go into most game like jack and daxter and ratchet and clank because the control felt so "off" by a WIDE margin, they are just functional. I have the same problem with rare game that aren't GE and PD, moving isn't fun.

im glad i am not that picky about games lol

usually when theres just ONE aspect i really like about a game i can tolerate everything thats "bad" about it

[cynicalsandel]

Not a Super Mario 64 like, but speaking of collectathons, I was playing The Lego Hobbit last night and it's pretty much destroying things to collect little Lego pieces. Plus, there are special pieces and all this other junk to find in each level.

[gimymblert]

at least 3d platformer

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=998885

[s0]

this was bound to happen as people who grew up with the n64 enter their mid 20s

[Alevice]

eagerly awaiting on the cod of duty generation making scripted corridor shooters

[darkhog]

Alevice, aren't they doing it now with things like Unity, FPS Creator and other easy engines? Really with such easy to use gamedev tools I'd expect more people 13 year olds are making games than 20 years olds. Not commercial maybe but still games nevertheless.

I am making one as well, planning to do IGG campaign later this year. Link to the devlog is in my signature.

[gimymblert]

The only cod clone worth making is one who grok the spectacular driven level design into procedural generation

[melos]

i wonder if there are any good 3rd person, 3d walking games. (e.g.: dark souls in a shopping mall without combat). maybe that wouldnt be good : but.