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Snail_Man
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« on: September 17, 2014, 07:17:27 PM »



The game I'm currently working is highly experimental. Think "FTL: Faster than Light", but without actual interesting fighting bits. It's a little more interesting than that, but as you've no doubt surmised, the game is damn near 100% interface, and therefore I really want the interface to be pretty interesting.

I've already designed the star-system to star-system menu. That's fine, aesthetically pleasing, intuitive, etc. My issue is with the individual locations that you visit (Space bars, shops, etc). Hitherto, my plan was just to make it a large conversation tree, but I'm having many, many second thoughts about this, as it seems very bland and boring. I want it to be more dynamic than that, but I cannot think of a feasible way. I've thought of having a sort of graphical representation of the location, and you just select who you want to talk to, what you want to interact with, etc, but this seems like it would be a huge amount of work, seeing as all the worlds are generated dynamically, and I'd have to upwards of 20 variations of every location to make it seem like you weren't going to the same place every time.

So I was wondering if anyone had a better idea, preferably one that wouldn't require me doing upwards of 500 extra backgrounds.

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valrus
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« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2014, 10:56:48 PM »

Huh, yeah, there's something about space games and bland interfaces.  Dock somewhere => menu time!  (It would be neat, though, if you chose options from a menu but while you were doing that, you saw your crew scurrying around carrying out those orders.)

Some random thoughts:

  • In order to cut down on backgrounds, maybe make it that you only talk to people on stations.  (Getting out of a gravity well is expensive, so why go down in the first place?)  Just have a few dozen possible rooms and stick them together into stations, then show your planet background behind that.
  • Maybe represent all your choices as a constellation, and then re-use your star travel interface. With your major conversation partners (merchant, bartender, etc.) as the nodes, and what you can interact about as nodes off of those.
  • Speaking of conversation trees, y'know what game I miss, is the old game Nomad, in part because you could talk to anyone about anything.  It didn't feel like traversing a conversation tree, because there were many more options than you could traverse.  One of the things that this underscored was that the various aliens were actually different -- they had different things they liked to talk about, different needs and preferences, etc. -- and you had to learn this.  You weren't just choosing from a list chosen for you by the designer, you were learning the possibility space.
  • Maybe there's no galactic standard of "menu" and/or no galactic standard language, so you're navigating *alien* interfaces, through an overlay generated by your ship's own computer, and only some of the content is translatable until you learn new words/symbols/conventions.

If you're trying to procedurally generate planetary/station/ship representatives such that the player is conversing with them, I think Nomad is actually a good point of reference.  I couldn't imagine procedurally generating the content of Star Control II, but I could imagine generating the knowledge/personalities/preferences of the Nomad races, or at least the individuals of those races.
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Snail_Man
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« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2014, 09:42:43 PM »

In order to cut down on backgrounds, maybe make it that you only talk to people on stations.  (Getting out of a gravity well is expensive, so why go down in the first place?)  Just have a few dozen possible rooms and stick them together into stations, then show your planet background behind that.

That's just the thing though. I want each location to feel unique, and thinking "Hey, wasn't I here two stars ago" kind of breaks the immersion.
I was actually thinking of writing a small 3D program within the game to randomly generate a scene, then pick a good angle, and apply a shader to it to make it look like the rest of the game art. About half the time when I think of doing it that way, it seems like a good idea, and the other half, it seems like complete insane overkill.


Maybe represent all your choices as a constellation, and then re-use your star travel interface. With your major conversation partners (merchant, bartender, etc.) as the nodes, and what you can interact about as nodes off of those.
This is a pretty interesting idea, but it seems a bit abstract for what I'm going for. Also I'd want a bit more variety than being stuck on the star interface for the entire game.


Speaking of conversation trees, y'know what game I miss, is the old game Nomad, in part because you could talk to anyone about anything.  It didn't feel like traversing a conversation tree, because there were many more options than you could traverse.  One of the things that this underscored was that the various aliens were actually different -- they had different things they liked to talk about, different needs and preferences, etc. -- and you had to learn this.  You weren't just choosing from a list chosen for you by the designer, you were learning the possibility space.
That actually sounds really cool. I haven't played the game, but generating unique personalities is on my to-do list. Would you mind explaining in a bit more detail how it worked exactly?
I might use a very multifaceted conversation tree for the actual conversing, but I'm still looking for the intermittent step  between the star-system-to-star-system navigation, and the conversations with individual aliens.


Maybe there's no galactic standard of "menu" and/or no galactic standard language, so you're navigating *alien* interfaces, through an overlay generated by your ship's own computer, and only some of the content is translatable until you learn new words/symbols/conventions.
A nice idea, but when I look at it from a strictly design viewpoint, I think it would obfuscate the core of the game.


If you're trying to procedurally generate planetary/station/ship representatives such that the player is conversing with them, I think Nomad is actually a good point of reference.  I couldn't imagine procedurally generating the content of Star Control II, but I could imagine generating the knowledge/personalities/preferences of the Nomad races, or at least the individuals of those races.
Again, never played the game. Sad
I am planning to have randomly generated races, and randomly generated individuals within the races as well.

Thanks for the help. Although I still haven't found *exactly* what I'm looking for, you have given me some concepts to think about.  Smiley
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BarchKing
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« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2014, 11:59:07 PM »

- you have been visited by the prince of poets -






use colours for representation simple blend modes and colorise simple lines are useful.





thinking in terms of game design are holding you back
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valrus
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« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2014, 12:21:05 AM »

That actually sounds really cool. I haven't played the game, but generating unique personalities is on my to-do list. Would you mind explaining in a bit more detail how it worked exactly?
I might use a very multifaceted conversation tree for the actual conversing, but I'm still looking for the intermittent step  between the star-system-to-star-system navigation, and the conversations with individual aliens.

It was basically a fly-around-and-trade space game, but since the combat was pretty rudimentary it was largely a game about conversation.  You had a big starmap, and could fly to any planet, and around planets you could hail ships/planets/stations or be hailed by them.  Most of the details of what you'd do (buying/selling, getting and trading information, etc.) were themed as encounters with specific individuals (captains of ships, planetary representatives, etc.)  Like in Star Control 2, all contact was remote; you don't go onto their ships/stations, nor they onto yours.  I think after conversations there may have been an animation representing cargo transfer, but otherwise it's behind the scenes; there's little doing that isn't talking.

Captains/representatives were represented by talking portraits and generated "speech"; you had the options of asking them about things, telling them facts in hopes they have something more to add, offering items in trade, and requesting items in trade.  Each option was just a big list, and as you learn about things in this world, they're added to your list.  You can ask/tell/offer/request anything to anyone, so long as you know/have it; your choices aren't limited based on what will be "relevant" to any particular person. (The lists get pretty big, which was annoying, but we're rather better at user-friendly lists today than we were 20 years ago.  Immediately approximate search would be very handy if it's a keyboard-controlled game, for example.)

I should note that the interface itself is bland, but you don't really notice because of the charm of the aliens themselves.  There were about a dozen alien civilizations, each one pretty distinct.  Some are interested mostly in trade, others (like the energy beings) more interested in information, some only are willing to talk after you've fought a bunch of them, one you can't talk to at all without a translator mechanism.  Each has things it wants, has, or knows about; the big drunken bears mostly are interested in trading food and drink, others mostly trade in military hardware, etc.  Most individuals of these races are just generic instances, but there are also maybe a few dozen distinct individuals with preferences/knowledge that their compatriots lack.

While this was all scripted, I think a lot could, in principle, be generated.  Each race had an animated portrait, a background (entirely forgettable, actually), a spoken language (just audio samples pieced together, but nonetheless a big part of the charm of the game), a few linguistic quirks in the text, racial needs and desires (like what they eat and like), and common racial knowledge (like their history, where their own planets are, what they think of other races).  Individuals (that is, people representing ships/stations/planets) also have inventories (determining what they'll trade with/for and how valuable something is to them at that moment), and sometimes specific needs , opinions, and information (they might know a little-known fact, or know where someone important is, or need a particular item, or be unusually fair-minded about their racial "enemies".)  All of this could be potentially generated.  Some of it would be quite easy, others (like portraits, "languages", and individuals' knowledge of and attitudes towards other individuals) more difficult (but much more fun to do).

The reason I think that you could generate something like Nomad, but not generate something like Star Control 2, is that your practical inability to query everyone about everything leads to an illusion of depth.  The keyword you haven't tried, or the keyword you don't know yet, might be the key to unlock more interesting stuff.  (Even after you know that basically all drunken bear people are the same "person", you can still maintain the illusion that it's just because you don't know what to ask drunken bear people about that would differentiate them.)

Actually, that's another thing that makes the illusion work, is that everyone's an alien.  If they were humans it'd be more clear that these were bland clones of each other with mostly cosmetic differences.  The Outgroup Homogeneity Bias can work in the game's favor: since alien races are outgroups, individual aliens looking & acting alike confirms the player's expectations, whereas if they were themed as the player's ingroup (that is, humans), them all looking & acting alike would break the player's expectations.  (Star Control II also took advantage of this; the humans and nearly-humans are very few and scripted as distinct individuals, because this is where people would find homogeneity to be immersion-breaking, whereas sentient mushrooms can all act alike and no one will mind.)
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Snail_Man
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« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2014, 10:24:33 AM »

<Snip>
O...k? Shrug

<snip>

Very interesting read! My game actually sounds quite similar to that, at least in the 'flying around and talking to people without much combat' aspect.

So, for the individual location screens, I'm thinking I'll just have a simple background showing the location, (Bar, Casino, Museum, Mine), then I'll generate details to make them visually distinct. The player will have the simple ability to click on the various aliens around to speak to them, and then be lead on to a complex conversation tree, in the background of which, there will be a graphical representation of the alien sitting across from you at the table/whatever you're talking over. It seems like the most intuitive interface, but also provides a bit of visual interest with the backgrounds.

Once caveat is that I'd really like the aliens to convey mood in some way, but it seems like it'd be a massive amount of work to sprite separate versions of all the facial features I've already made for being worried, angry, sad etc, but it seems incredibly cheap to just have a little box telling you what they're feeling.
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« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2014, 11:18:27 AM »

Once caveat is that I'd really like the aliens to convey mood in some way, but it seems like it'd be a massive amount of work to sprite separate versions of all the facial features I've already made for being worried, angry, sad etc, but it seems incredibly cheap to just have a little box telling you what they're feeling.

Hmm, my thought is that, since you get to invent what counts as facial expressions, you can define expression solely in terms of position and movement.  So whatever algorithm you're using to compose features into an individual, also define deviation states for each individual, and map moods to state transitions, possibly on a species-by-species basis.  (So some roll of the dice defines Orgox anger to be a 10% widening of eye-to-eye distance, a lowering and 10% rotation of the head, and a clucking sound, and extreme anger as silence and an oscillation between the default state and the eyes-wide state.)  Let the player learn this "tell", but also let friendly aliens of other races drop hints.  "Oh, that's Orgox space.  Be careful there; if an Orgox goes silent and starts wobbling his eyes at you, get the hell out!"

Further riffing on the idea, different thresholds for mood state transitions could be an important part of the personality of the species of the individual.  Being quick-to-anger or quick-to-forgive could be both species traits ("Orgox are quick to anger") or notable deviations from species norms ("For an Auleru, she's surprisingly quick to anger!").  Of course, if the speaker comes from a quick-to-anger race, he'll couch this as praise ("For an Auleru, she's refreshingly assertive!")  In general I think a Crusader Kings II-type personality system would be very interesting in a universe where the various cultures have no universal norms or moral standards.  There would just be species medians on various traits, and how individuals describe each other depends on their own species medians and how much they're a typical instance of their species.
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Snail_Man
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« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2014, 12:51:29 PM »

A number of wonderful ideas! Thanks a bunch!

I had had some similar ideas about the 'people giving you relative information' in mind, but on a much more macro scale. For example, if they worked for the Yfaayoe government, they could mention that although all outward appearances indicated that they and their allies the Agoke were the best of friends, there were actually tensions that precipitated a possible falling out, or that they hired the DELIVERYCO courier service, and they stole all their stuff.


Again, thanks for the great ideas!
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