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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGamesGAMES JOURNALISM!!!
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Tuba
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« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2014, 06:45:11 AM »

Sinclair hits it on the head. This is what the majority of the big name journalists want. We're tired of regurgitating PR shit; we want to be critics, first and foremost. Unfortunately, gaming consumerism is so toxic and gross that it's fighting back against this shift, even though it represents the maturity of games as an art form.

Oh well.

Luckly, I think this is where we're heading into already. Some months ago I got some old 90's gaming magazines to remember how they were and it was pure PR! There were no critiques, just a description of the game and a score fro graphics, sound and "fun factor". Things are much better today with sites like Killscreen, RPS and Polygon (I don't like most of their reviews and how they handle some news but their enterviews and big articles about development are usually very good).
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starsrift
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« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2014, 07:17:24 AM »

Having a conversation about games journalism at this present juncture feels a lot like validating and justifying the misogynist bullshit of the last few weeks.
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« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2014, 07:44:00 AM »

Having a conversation about games journalism at this present juncture feels a lot like validating and justifying the misogynist bullshit of the last few weeks.

uh... no?
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SirNiko
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« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2014, 02:02:34 PM »

Right, anyone can write about games they like and games they don't like. That's fine. TotalBiscuit and many other youtubers actually operate in this manner (they just plainly say what they think about something). However, youtubers, generally speaking, do not claim to be journalists. To be a journalist you have to aspire to a higher writing standard than just being a blogger with an opinion. It's the difference between being the guy who reports stories in a newspaper and the guy who writes a letter and sends it in to the paper.

I'm not sure what you think this 'higher writing standard' needs to be. Are you talking about things outside of game reviews, like interviews with developers? I was focused on game reviews, which is what I thought was the primary topic of discussion. There is definitely value in having people with journalistic integrity and training on how to properly find, interview and cite sources and avoid corrupting influence or bias (inadvertent or not).

When it comes to game reviews, though, 'higher standards' are just different standards. The quality of writing in an article is immaterial if your audience can understand you and finds your reporting useful for finding enjoyable games. The depth with which you explore a game (eg, whether you discuss themes and characters, or just number of hours of content) is only important insofar as it matches what your audience needs to hear to find games that match their tastes. Some players aren't looking to explore social issues - they want puzzles and action sequences (I sometimes fall into this category - I deal with this kind of ambiguous problem solving in work and daily life, so I don't need more of it in my play time). This isn't better or worse, it's just different.

I don't think the problem is that journalists doing game reviews should be a step up but aren't, but rather, that what some people believe are higher standards are just their own, different standards they are trying (perhaps under a misguided notion of benevolence) to force on other people.

As for corruption, it sucks when somebody writes a glowing review for a mediocre or crappy game because it earns them money, but if you're fooled into buying two lousy games in a row because you trusted the same reviewer twice it starts to be your own problem. Ultimately the problem of corrupt journalists (for games and for otherwise) is to ignore them and seek out new sources of information that you believe to be less corrupt. The open nature of the internet makes this very easy to do, since you can gather dozens of different perspectives quickly and immediately look for contradictions that might point out a biased party.
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Fallsburg
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« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2014, 03:47:45 PM »

For the most part, games journalism isn't journalism. Occasionally, you get actual journalism like Street Fighter 2: An Oral History that actually tries to do a deep dive on a subject. And occasionally you get reporters trying to find out what companies don't want acknowledged, like the fact that Crytek wasn't paying their employees. But most of it is passing off company press releases as "journalism".  Or at least it was until "new games journalism" came about, that tried to insert the "journalist" into the equation. 

Anyway, that seems to be what all these garbage babies are up in a huff about, and I think they can all go fuck themselves and then sign up for corporate newsletters, because that's all they care about.

I will say, he hasn't done much (any?) self promotion here, but Dragonmaw has been doing a great job writing about #gombergoot that you can read at http://simplikation.com/. Hell, I support him on Patreon because of this writing, and this is a man that once told be to grow some balls because of our disagreement about save systems.
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« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2014, 03:58:18 PM »

Having a conversation about games journalism at this present juncture feels a lot like validating and justifying the misogynist bullshit of the last few weeks.

uh... no?

it kind of is because its recognizing that gamergaters were campaigning for a legitimate reason instead of coopting an argument into their sexist shitshow.
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« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2014, 04:35:19 PM »

uh... no
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Blambo
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« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2014, 04:38:53 PM »

...well i'm not saying that it shouldn't be talked about, it just feels bad.
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Dragonmaw
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« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2014, 05:51:10 PM »

For the most part, games journalism isn't journalism. Occasionally, you get actual journalism like Street Fighter 2: An Oral History that actually tries to do a deep dive on a subject. And occasionally you get reporters trying to find out what companies don't want acknowledged, like the fact that Crytek wasn't paying their employees. But most of it is passing off company press releases as "journalism".  Or at least it was until "new games journalism" came about, that tried to insert the "journalist" into the equation. 

Anyway, that seems to be what all these garbage babies are up in a huff about, and I think they can all go fuck themselves and then sign up for corporate newsletters, because that's all they care about.

I will say, he hasn't done much (any?) self promotion here, but Dragonmaw has been doing a great job writing about #gombergoot that you can read at http://simplikation.com/. Hell, I support him on Patreon because of this writing, and this is a man that once told be to grow some balls because of our disagreement about save systems.

<3 that's you? Thank you!!!
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« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2014, 05:55:07 PM »

I'd like to see reviews where the authors divide them into subsections of different schools of critical/literary theory with some jQueryUI tabs so I don't have to read the shit that's fundamentally boring or founded on wrong assumptions, each tab being thorough and rigorous in its own right.
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jamesprimate
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« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2014, 06:58:16 PM »

and this is a man that once told me to grow some balls because of our disagreement about save systems.

best part of this whole damn thread
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Tuba
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« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2014, 07:09:17 PM »

Having a conversation about games journalism at this present juncture feels a lot like validating and justifying the misogynist bullshit of the last few weeks.

uh... no?

it kind of is because its recognizing that gamergaters were campaigning for a legitimate reason instead of coopting an argument into their sexist shitshow.

There's no denying that there are problems with games journalism, most journalists agree with that. But most journalists also agree that these problemas have nothing to do with feminism, social justice and plain "corruption". I don't see a problem in talking about what these problems really are because gamergaters surely don't know.
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Mittens
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« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2014, 08:01:17 PM »

The way I understand it, honest/critical games journalism doesn't work because it's almost impossible to wrangle the readership.

Popular journalist sites always runs stories on what is already a big topic in media because it effectively uses all those Activition/EA advertising dollars on bringing you hits.

People will already be searching google for "Titanfall" etc. So being the first to review said game will funnel those hits to you.

Non-commercial reviewers who aren't going to cover every piece of mainstream garbage as soon as it's released are going to get ignored.

This is why everyone was so quick to give thier 2 cents about Zoe Quinn, it was a hot topic getting tones of searches per second and everyone is grabbing at the air, trying to catch the next wave
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Dragonmaw
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« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2014, 08:57:06 PM »

Also, developers that create non-traditional games are lightning rods for this sort of complete horseshit. See: Fullbright, Zoe Quinn, Anna Anthropy, etc.

"Hardcore" gamers blame people making non-traditional games for destroying the medium, so whenever there's the slightest hint of impropriety (true or otherwise) they jump on it in an attempt to discredit the entire movement of "art games." It's so tepid and banal and I just want to punch everyone.
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starsrift
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« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2014, 10:12:51 PM »

Having a conversation about games journalism at this present juncture feels a lot like validating and justifying the misogynist bullshit of the last few weeks.

uh... no?

it kind of is because its recognizing that gamergaters were campaigning for a legitimate reason instead of coopting an argument into their sexist shitshow.

Like giving a child throwing a tantrum the item that they want, or candy to shut them up - a reward for behaving badly.

It's a good conversation to have, just... Bleh. Carry on as you will.
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« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2014, 10:16:13 PM »

i get your point but Journalism In Games is a big important thing regardless, and as long as you're not caving to the "this sexist harassment is all about Ethics" bullfuck then it's still a discussion worth having, especially when a part of that discussion is acknowledging that the whole gamergate movement is a disgusting sham designed to hurt women and minorities
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« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2014, 10:20:03 PM »

"Hardcore" gamers blame people making non-traditional games for destroying the medium, so whenever there's the slightest hint of impropriety (true or otherwise) they jump on it in an attempt to discredit the entire movement of "art games." It's so tepid and banal and I just want to punch everyone.

Really? People were complaining about "art games" in 2006-7 a lot it's weird to think that people still think that way. I don't think it's art games per se but games infused with an ideology that they disagree with that caused all the ruckus.

e: Actually I don't really think it's about the games at all, nor 'hardcore gamers'.
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PowRTocH
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« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2014, 10:20:38 PM »

also why didn't anyone comment on my first post, it's a great idea, someone with more free time than me should make it happen
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rj
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« Reply #38 on: September 19, 2014, 10:22:32 PM »

why don't we move on from reviews altogether and just require all journalists to develop games to respond to games that describe how they felt while playing games
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« Reply #39 on: September 19, 2014, 10:29:41 PM »

why don't we move on from reviews altogether and just require all journalists to develop games to respond to games that describe how they felt while playing games
This is literally the best thing ever.

More on topic, I don't know much about the issue, so I dislike commenting on it, but basically CAS & Dragonmaw has echoed my own private opinions.
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